Mary's pain in Rev 12:1-2

[majahnke]

*From Rev 12:1-2 (quoted below - in red, along with an analysis provided by Douay-Rhemis Bible Online - quoted in blue), it appears that the woman spoken of is the Blessed Mother. Recently, a well-known and reputable priest cited this passage on the Feast of the Assumption as referring to Mary.

My understanding of Original Sin is that it is the origin of birth-giving pains for women. Thus, if Mary was conceived without original sin, she would not “[cry] travailing in birth.” How is this contradiction rectified for Catholics?

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.

(1 “A woman”… The church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady. The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions.)
*

 

[tuopaolo]

The pain there is referring to Mary’s spiritual pain such as the suffering she experienced when watching her Son die.

 

[Salmon]

majahnke:

• My understanding of Original Sin is that it is the origin of birth-giving pains for women. Thus, if Mary was conceived without original sin, she would not “[cry] travailing in birth.” How is this contradiction rectified for Catholics?

1* And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.

(1 “A woman”… The church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady. The church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet: and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions.)

“The woman” has been identified by some as:
1)Mary
2)Israel
3)the Church

The Church, however, did NOT give birth to Christ, leading some to hold the other two choices in higher regard.

The Catholic Church teaches that Mary did not undergo birth pangs in delivering her Son, Jesus. She is also regarded as the mother of the Church, however.

The birth of the early Church was filled with torment and strife as persecution of the early Christian sect was brutal and widespread, both by Jews and Romans. Paul (as Saul) was not the only one arresting and jailing early Christians.

The martyrs went to their deaths, and their blood was called the seed of the early Church. Mary, as the mother of the Church had been the subject of prophesy by Simeon, who said that a sword would pierce her soul.

See verse 17 of the same chapter (12) of Revelation that you have cited:
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Torment, indeed, for the mother of the Church.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[threej_lc]

For further depth of this subject, read "The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth " by Scott Hahn.

 

[Nate]

Salmon:

The Catholic Church teaches that Mary did not undergo birth pangs in delivering her Son, Jesus. She is also regarded as the mother of the Church, however.

I did not think that was an official Church dogma however, but rather a theological speculation. It is one that doesn’t make much sense in that although childbirth pains were part of the consequences of the fall and orignal sin, those consequences befell the whole human race, and being born without sin did not necessarily exempt one from its all its physical consequences. For exampe death was one of the consequences of original sin, and Jesus was born without orignal sin, but still felt pain and died. He also worked for a living, which was another consequence.

So although one could impute the pain of Revelations 12 to “spiritual pain” , I don’t think you have to do so.

 

[Salmon]

Nate:

I did not think that was an official Church dogma however, but rather a theological speculation.

You are correct in recognizing that this is not a dogmatic proclamation. The Early Church Fathers taught that Mary experienced no pain in giving birth to Jesus, however:

From: Mary: “Full of Grace”

The Ascension of Isaiah

“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

The Odes of Solomon

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).

It is one that doesn’t make much sense in that although childbirth pains were part of the consequences of the fall and orignal sin, those consequences befell the whole human race, and being born without sin did not necessarily exempt one from its all its physical consequences. For exampe death was one of the consequences of original sin, and Jesus was born without orignal sin, but still felt pain and died. He also worked for a living, which was another consequence.

Perhaps we should look at death as a consequence of sin, rather than a consequence of original sin. Both Adam and Eve were created without original sin, but through sin evil entered into the world. Yes, Jesus was sinless, but took upon Himself the effects of all of the sins of the world, and died upon the cross for our sakes.

So although one could impute the pain of Revelations 12 to “spiritual pain” , I don’t think you have to do so.

Perhaps the pain experienced by Mary in giving birth to the early Church was physical anguish and physical torment and not only “spiritual”.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[bengal_fan]

“The woman” has been identified by some as:
1)Mary
2)Israel
3)the Church

The Church, however, did NOT give birth to Christ, leading some to hold the other two choices in higher regard.

however, the church does bring Christ into the world as a mother brings her child into the world, and it is a painful process which is why it is a legitimate interpretation. all three are legitimate and all three can be correct at the same time. it does not have to be either/or, but both/and.

along the lines of mary’s pain. if she were completely free from the consequences of original sin, she would have been born in eden and not had to work (same with Jesus). she could have been born without original sin but still felt the consequences that are in this world. remember that her parents sinned and her mother felt pain. my point with that is that original sin and the cast out of eden changed our physical make-up (i.e. we weren’t even supposed to die, but now our bodies die and rot away) and mary was born into this changed physical make-up so it seems logical that mary experienced pain even though she was saved pre-emptively from original sin.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Gen 3:16

NRSV To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

NIV To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

KJV Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

It is not at all clear to me that the assumption can be made that if Orginal Sin had not happened that there would NOT be some kind of pain in childbearing.

The text in Genesis seems to indicate that the pains are now to be greatly multiplied, but it seems reasonable to assme from the wording of the text that some kind of pain was determined to be already existant before the fall.

Remember that this all happened before anyone was ever born from Eve. So it seems reasonable that God planned for childbirth to contain some kind of pain.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Good responses here and I’ll add this summation: Even if Mary experienced all manner of pain (physical, spiritual, whatever) it would have no bearing on the question of her sinlessness because freedom from original sin does not necessarily mean freedom from all normal human imperfections that are consequences of sin.

Scott