Masculine vs. Feminine Behavior

[MysticMissMisty]

Salvete, omnes!

I guess my question in this thread boils down to this: Are men and women expected to display certain gender-specific behaviors/interests/personality types, these being their “natural” (God-designed/designated) ones?

Are we (women like myself) specifically supposed all to be “sweet”, emotionally-centered, soft-spoken and un-opionated/un-assertive in bearing while men are to be cool, logical, freely-spoken and assertive in their desires-convictions?

I ask this because I myself may admittedly fall in demeanor more under the latter than the former category. While I am far from being “jocular” in my bearing, I do tend to be of a cooler personality persuasion and far more logically than emotionally-driven. (You may, in fact, even be able to tell this in my writing style.) I am also very strongly-stated in my convictions and am not necessarily willing to demure to another simply because he’s a man with respect to this (unless he is a man more qualified to speak on a particular matter). My interests tend toward the intellectual (the scientific, philosophical, historical/linguistic), areas which have been traditionally associated (and to a large degree still are) with men. In sum, I am a bit of a “geek girl”, if you ill, though I am also, being of the INFJ personality type, quite moved internally, especially by the emotional states of others. (This is why the Passion has always been for me the most stirring aspect of Christ’s life, death and resurrection.)

Yet, certainly in Scripture, women tend to be portrayed as that sweet, unassuming type I described earlier. Even Mary herself is portrayed as a “quiet” type, always “ondering in her heart”. Paul, elsewhere, seems even to encourage women to bear a “gentle and quiet spirit” which he says is of great price to God.

So, indeed, is there any place for women to lean more toward what is typically masculine in personality/interests (and, secondarily to this discussion, for men to do similarly)?

Please understand that I am asking these questions out of genuine inquiry, not to stir up controversy in some spirit of malice. I am therefore uninterested in emotionally-driven, ad hominem (mulierem? ) responses.

Be well, all.

 

[10gr8kids]

I haven’t looked this up right now, so some of my facts may be off, but I think of Judith, didn’t she behead some guy. Then it seems like there is another story of some woman driving a nail into some guys head. Also, there is Esther, she may have used feminine charm, but she went to the king, which she wasn’t suppose to do, and ended up getting Haman hung.
Also, I think, Deborah lead the Isearalites into war.

 

[Della]

Mary was in no way quiet and submissive in the sense you mean. She was brave, intelligent, assertive when needed and bold. How can I say these things? From what we know of her.

What mousy woman would assent to conceiving and bearing a child of the Holy Spirit when she is betrothed–this without consulting or asking permission from her husband (in ancient cultures she was considered his wife while engaged to him). What quiet, timid woman would travel several miles over rough country to visit an aged relative whom she learned was pregnant? And then when she gets there stays until the baby is born–3 months, once again without asking anyone’s permission to go. It also took a brave woman to evade Herod’s murderous men to escape into Egypt. She dared to ask her Son for a miracle just to make things easier for/save from embarrasment a newly married couple. She followed her Son and ministered to his disciples in spite of the opposition of the ruling classes, when she could have stayed safely at home. She followed her Son to Calvary and stood by him as he died. And she prayed with the Apostles and disciples in the Upper Room at Pentecost, once again when she could have bowed out and returned home. No wuss would have done all that.

There is no such thing as a “type” of behavior for women anymore than there is for men. Both can be cowardly or brave, intelligent or not, hardworking or lazy, and the list goes on. I enjoy good conversation and discussing ideas as much as any man–just ask my husband. My personality happens to be more introverted than extraverted, but I’m not a shrinking violet, either. If I have something to say, I say it. And if I have a good idea I express it. So, just be yourself and don’t let society’s definitions of feminity affect you. It’s ironic that in this day when the feminists demand respect “like a man” they still try to put women into categories as if we weren’t human beings instead of pets. There are differences between the sexes but they aren’t as sharply defined as many seem to think. We women are just as capable but we don’t need to take on the worst of human behavior to prove it–we don’t need to claw our way over other people’s backs nor use coarse language nor be cold-hearted. We can be the best of human nature, through God’s grace, and be kind, considerate, helpful, and patient with everyone with whom we deal on a daily basis.

 

[Mintaka]

Brava, Della! That pretty much says it all!

But since I’m mouthy, I’ll add something:

Think of a bunch of brothers and sisters in a family. Usually, all the boys are equally masculine, and all the girls are equally feminine. But every single one of those boys will be a unique boy with a unique personality and way of expressing himself, and every single one of those girls will also have her own tastes and personality and forms of expression.

Even when you think of heroes or Bible figures, the men and the women are all quite different in how they go about things. Deborah is not Esther, and Abigail is not Rahab, and Miriam is not Mary of Bethany, and Jael is not Elizabeth.

However, if a girl doesn’t have an understanding of how extremely different that women can be, she may assume that she is unfeminine, or that other girls are unfeminine.

Usually, the only way you can really become “unmasculine” or “unfeminine” is by hating your body and your self.

 

[MysticMissMisty]

Thanks for the replies thus far, though I am still certainly open to further (name removed by moderator)ut!

To those who have replied, again, thank you truly, though I am still interested in hearing what you have to say in response to the Scriptures I cited, particularly that regarding the woman having a “gentle and quiet spirit” which is of great price, etc.

The way I have always taken this is that this manner of spirit is of great price whether coming from a woman or a man. There are a few things that problematize this, however; first, the context is, indeed, in reference to women. Second, if this kind of “gentle and quiet” spirit is of such value to God, what does this say of people with personality types like mine as I described earlier? (The second question may be a bit OT and could deserve its own thread as it involves definitions of “quiet” and “gentle” and when/how/where they are applicable in the Christian life. I’ve actually thought of posting a separate thread myself dealing with these issues separately.)

Iterum vobis gratias!

 

[MysticMissMisty]

Think of a bunch of brothers and sisters in a family. Usually, all the boys are equally masculine, and all the girls are equally feminine.

However, if a girl doesn’t have an understanding of how extremely different that women can be, she may assume that she is unfeminine, or that other girls are unfeminine.

Usually, the only way you can really become “unmasculine” or “unfeminine” is by hating your body and your self.

First, and I mean no disrespect, but, could you please what you mean by “equally masculine” and “equally feminine”?

As to your second statement quoted above, perhaps (and I am indeed hoping that this is the case, I won’t lie) this is where I stand in regard to this issue. However, in regard to the ancient cultures with which we’re dealing (and with which I have a good degree of familiarity, at least on the classical side), those things proper to a particular gender were much more limited than they are today, and we must always, to be good exegetes, consider the times in which our authors write and how those times informed their intentions while writing. I guess the issue here would be how much in terms of gender-appropriateness are we to consider absolute (Godly) morality and how much are we to consider relative and cultural and, indeed, possibly misinformed? (These questions, I think, lie at the heart of so many discussions/debates of this kind.

Your last statement sounds very comforting and soothing, but also very vague and may perhaps even be a non sequitur. With all due respect, what does it even mean?

(Forgive me fro the clumsy way in which I still handle quotes. As a Liberal Arts major, born and bred, till trying completely to wrap my mind around this techie stuff. LOL)

Thanks again, everyone.

 

[Della]

Thanks for the replies thus far, though I am still certainly open to further (name removed by moderator)ut!

To those who have replied, again, thank you truly, though I am still interested in hearing what you have to say in response to the Scriptures I cited, particularly that regarding the woman having a “gentle and quiet spirit” which is of great price, etc.

The way I have always taken this is that this manner of spirit is of great price whether coming from a woman or a man. There are a few things that problematize this, however; first, the context is, indeed, in reference to women. Second, if this kind of “gentle and quiet” spirit is of such value to God, what does this say of people with personality types like mine as I described earlier? (The second question may be a bit OT and could deserve its own thread as it involves definitions of “quiet” and “gentle” and when/how/where they are applicable in the Christian life. I’ve actually thought of posting a separate thread myself dealing with these issues separately.)

Iterum vobis gratias!

The reference in 1Pt. 3:4 isn’t the only place in which we Christians are admonished to be “quiet” our words and actions. It doesn’t mean “sit down and shut up” it merely means to go about your daily tasks in peace and quiet, doing what one needs to do knowing that that is sufficient for us who are not called to greater actions/missions. Men are admonished to do and behave in certain ways, as well, not just us gals. All of us should be gentle in how we treat the faults of others and kind in everything we do. It’s not a particularly feminine trait, but one of a human being dedicated to living peaceably in the world as far as it is possible.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Honestly, I have NeVER meet a mother who is sweet and all you described. Most mothers I see are yelling, screaming, nagging, and on a misson to move mountains. I was listening to a radio show where they were celebrating women & their descriptions eluded me and I thought that they were trying to “will it” by stating what they want. Even the nicest Christian families across the street where I grew up the mother was yelling.

Now I know men who long for Asian women because they are portrayed as the most gentile of the world. However, I have had a step mother from the Phillipeans, and sure to strangers they put on their mask and act the part … Bu they still yell, scream, and are on a mission to move mountains. My MIL is basicly Slovainian and she and her female members bash on men as much as the Fillopeno’s … Yell the same threats (I’m going to box your ears) and are so close in personality it’s scary. So again, the portrait we are given seems to be a funny mask.

I confess, now that I’m a mother, I’m acting like my mother (the Fillapeno who raised me) and I cannot escape the role of yelling, screaming, and tying to move mountains. Sigh, I want to be gentile and sweet, but gosh it’s near impossible. Granted, it would help if I could think of one livng mother as a role model … But I’ve searched and searched with no avail.

Even on meditating on the mysteries of the Joyful Mystery where Mary and Joseph lost Jesus — I can’t imagine her gracefully instructing Him — I see screaming, yelling, and crying … And taking away benefits. Thereby loosing her sweet status in my mind.

 

[Nelka]

:hypno:

 

[Bonnie]

Other than what is obviously physically ordained - bearing children & nursing - most, if not all, behavior comes from cultural expectations.

There are some excellent & easy to understand books about cultures around the world. Mine are all packed away at the moment, or I’d give you some authors & titles. Brain just can’t hold all that info any more.

 

[Mary_Estelle]

I pretty much agree with what Dell posted. Keep in mind that most history and expectations of the value and proper place for women were written by…oh…you guessed it…by men. There is a quote that says that history is written by the winners. So…the post game me the giggles in a sense. We do not generally see or read much about the strength of women in history books I think of Joan of Ark who put on a suit of armour and lead an army for the freedom of France while the King sat at home. Thusly, there are strengths and failures by both genders, strong or weak personalities of both men and women. So I think I agree with Della.

 

[sallybutler]

Honestly, I have NeVER meet a mother who is sweet and all you described. Most mothers I see are yelling, screaming, nagging, and on a misson to move mountains. I was listening to a radio show where they were celebrating women & their descriptions eluded me and I thought that they were trying to “will it” by stating what they want. Even the nicest Christian families across the street where I grew up the mother was yelling.

Now I know men who long for Asian women because they are portrayed as the most gentile of the world. However, I have had a step mother from the Phillipeans, and sure to strangers they put on their mask and act the part … Bu they still yell, scream, and are on a mission to move mountains. My MIL is basicly Slovainian and she and her female members bash on men as much as the Fillopeno’s … Yell the same threats (I’m going to box your ears) and are so close in personality it’s scary. So again, the portrait we are given seems to be a funny mask.

I confess, now that I’m a mother, I’m acting like my mother (the Fillapeno who raised me) and I cannot escape the role of yelling, screaming, and tying to move mountains. Sigh, I want to be gentile and sweet, but gosh it’s near impossible. Granted, it would help if I could think of one livng mother as a role model … But I’ve searched and searched with no avail.

Even on meditating on the mysteries of the Joyful Mystery where Mary and Joseph lost Jesus — I can’t imagine her gracefully instructing Him — I see screaming, yelling, and crying … And taking away benefits. Thereby loosing her sweet status in my mind.

FYI, mothers yell because children are deaf (at least when it is the mother saying something the child doesn’t want to hear). It is pretty much a world wide activity that is not confined to any one culture.

 

[Sarcelle]

Sweet, gentle, demure?
That sounds more like a golden retriever.

Am I like that?

Sometimes.

I don’t think the Church teaches that we must conform to stereotypes.

 

[TimothyH]

Yet, certainly in Scripture, women tend to be portrayed as that sweet, unassuming type I described earlier. Even Mary herself is portrayed as a “quiet” type, always “ondering in her heart”.

Mary was not sheepish, quiet or unassuming nor was she portrayed that way in the Bible. Mary was a Jewish mother. I don’t know of any Jewish mother who could be portrayed that way. These are incredibly strong women.

The woman who best represents Mary in the Bible is the mother of the seven sons in 2 Maccabees 7. She is fiercely loyal and outspoken. quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=2+Maccabees&chapno=7&startverse=1&endverse=42

The idea of Mary as a pitiful victim is an invention of modern greeting card artists and songwriters.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

The only way anyone could state that the Bible portrays women as sweet and unassuming is to never have read it.

The women in the Bible are strong, faithful, outspoken and often save the entire nation of Israel through their courage.

-Tim-