Mass facing the people - why has it become so predominant?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Michael85
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Let me take a stab and explaining this. Yes “novus ordo” made sense back when the ordo really was novus. It was an accurate description. Now that the Mass used is no longer new, calling it new carries a different connotation than when it was new, a more reactionary appeal as it were.

What if I referred to rights granted to blacks by the Civil rights Act of 1964 as all these* new rights for blacks.* In 1964, it would be an enlightened comment. Now, it is reactionary comment and my offend black people.
I happened to be reading through this thread and came upon this post that I had missed.

You will forgive me…but I burst out laughing when I read it, knowing you had to be American…or at least not European.

In Rome, there is the Church of Santa Maria in Vallicella…but it is known by everyone as the Chiesa Nuova – the New Church – which is perhaps most famous as the church of St. Philip Neri. From the 16th century. It was already existing when given to the Saint. It is utterly without irony that is simply referred as “the new church.” It is just down the street from Hadrian’s tomb, after all. It goes back to the 2nd century.

I expect professors of liturgy 100 years from now will still be using the terms vetus ordo and novus ordo. For Rome, the measure of time is not years…it is centuries.
 
I did not even know it can be used disparagingly. 🤷

It is always better to ask rather than to blindly asume someone’s intention…
As I recall, it was the abbreviation “NO” Mass that was the problem. There some ultra traditionalist on board here who actually did intend it as an insult, inferring that the Novus Ordo was “no Mass”. Then there were some thereafter who always seem to feel that the use of “Novus Ordo” was an insult. Unless I am missing some other deeper meaning to the use of Novus Ordo, this is my recollection.
 
I happened to be reading through this thread and came upon this post that I had missed.

You will forgive me…but I burst out laughing when I read it, knowing you had to be American…or at least not European.
No offense taken. I appreciate your explanation. We are all products of our time and society and a catholic perspective (in the literal sense of the word) is always enlightening. It is interesting to know that this is terminology still used. With God’s mercy though, I won’t be around to see what theology has become 100 years from now. 😃

I personally have little emotional investment in the word, though I do recognize that the abbreviation is problematic, at least in some contexts. This though is less of a problem today then it was back when there was a greater number denying the authenticity of the Mass.
 
Vatican II never called for Mass to be said facing the people. As far as I understand, it was the General Instruction of the Roman Missal that called for it to be made possible.

So why has Mass facing the people, which was never mandated by Vatican II, become almost universal now?
I have seen this question/comment about what was or was not included in the documents of Vatican 2.

As a bit of explanation: each document of Vatican 2 was on overview, or a large picture, of what the 2,000+ bishops, in union with the Pope, wanted in the way of changes to the various areas of Church responsibility. Vatican 2 was not intended to, nor did it set out the various specifics which were to follow. In short, it set out areas such as liturgy, and indicated the directions they wanted changed; it was for the dicastery in charge of liturgy to direct the specifics.

There were a tremendous number of matters which the documents of Vatican 2 did not address specifically; those were to be worked out over time by the various departments in Rome (and in some matters, locally). And it was not as if the changes came out of “whole cloth” as some imply. For example, liturgical renewal was active under several popes prior to John 23rd; many if not most of the bishops of the world were at least familiar with what had been going on, and they knew that they wanted that renewal to be made for the whole rite.

Some people wonder why the changes were not all set out in the Vatican 2 documents; others seem to react as if any changes were to be strictly limited to what the documents stated. Both miss the point that the documents were an overview of what was to occur. The specifics were to follow - as they have.
 
“In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else”
I was there, too. It is not as you say…at all. Masses were most certainly rushed in the days before the liturgical reform and renewal, with which we were blessed.

Missals were assuredly not always available,

Every day of my priesthood, I thank God for the liturgical movement as well as for the gift of the Council
Back in the traditional days, I don’t think most of the faithful followed along with a missal, but they usually did know what was going on and how the mass was progressing. It was very difficult to try and follow word by word as to what the priest was saying in Latin.

Also, although I attended Latin masses for years, I don’t think I ever heard a high mass outside of a funeral. The usual standard was low mass.
I too am thankful for Vatican II and its reforms, both liturgical and otherwise.
It is still the same Church. It is the magisterium that met, to better meet the needs of the modern world. It was fully aware of the devastation of two world wars.
Perhaps there is a difference in how I view things because I have spent much of my life in parts of the world where Christianity is not the dominant religion. The pat memorized answers from the Baltimore Catechism didn’t satisfy classmates who asked me about my Faith.
My family always attended the earliest Mass available. It is true that the low Mass was the normal Mass except for special celebration such as Christmas and Easter. Girls and women were required to cover heads even to enter a church, even if it meant looking for a handkerchief or Kleenex. Sunday Mass may be the only time of the week that I still wear a dress.
We did carry our own missals to Mass, in the same way that non-Catholics today carry their Bibles to services. The Latin was written on one side, and I followed the English on the right. There were few a places for responses such as the Kyrie, which had remained in Greek. It was a challenge to follow both the missal and concentrate on Mass.

I did not belong to any of the parishes that waited to institute Vatican II changes. Those are the ones that experienced the greatest upheaval as statues were removed and communion railings ripped down, etc. I can understand how upsetting that was for people who felt their life was being turned upside down.

I welcomed being able to participate more fully in the Mass, and to be able to see what is happening on the altar.

There are two churches in a nearby city where I live. The mother church, which was my parish church is small with stained glass windows. There is little ornamentation in a church built of rich wood. It is over 100 years old. I am very comfortable within the intimacy of this old church.
A parishioner donated his own money to build the nearby church in 1956 of rich marble. It is ornate with side altars. I like the pieta in the vestibule. It carries trappings from before Vatican II of which so many people are fond. Unfortunately, its very richness can be distracting during Mass.

I was a young child when I lived in France. I no longer have any photos have the cathedrals we visited. Don Ruggero, I enjoyed reading your post about how Europe did not have the same negative response to Vatican II changes as reported in America. I can appreciate the architectural difficulty involved versus those of an American military chapel.
The most active parish to which I belonged is the one I just left in the Middle East.
 
I have seen this question/comment about what was or was not included in the documents of Vatican 2.

As a bit of explanation: each document of Vatican 2 was on overview, or a large picture, of what the 2,000+ bishops, in union with the Pope, wanted in the way of changes to the various areas of Church responsibility. Vatican 2 was not intended to, nor did it set out the various specifics which were to follow. In short, it set out areas such as liturgy, and indicated the directions they wanted changed; it was for the dicastery in charge of liturgy to direct the specifics.

There were a tremendous number of matters which the documents of Vatican 2 did not address specifically; those were to be worked out over time by the various departments in Rome (and in some matters, locally). And it was not as if the changes came out of “whole cloth” as some imply. For example, liturgical renewal was active under several popes prior to John 23rd; many if not most of the bishops of the world were at least familiar with what had been going on, and they knew that they wanted that renewal to be made for the whole rite.

Some people wonder why the changes were not all set out in the Vatican 2 documents; others seem to react as if any changes were to be strictly limited to what the documents stated. Both miss the point that the documents were an overview of what was to occur. The specifics were to follow - as they have.
Very well said.

The matter was summarised by the Council Fathers in one sentence of Sacrosanctum Concilium.

*25. The liturgical books are to be revised as soon as possible; experts are to be employed on the task, and bishops are to be consulted, from various parts of the world. *
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top