Mass good friday

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down_under

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I was at mass today and I keep running into this similar situation where the priests sit by and let the decon do all the work. He is permeant deacon married with children. he loves to do what really only the priest should be doing. Today he wore the special garment and carried the remainder of comunion away while one priest sat down and did nothing and the other cleared the alter. Does this sound funny to any of you? he also was the person to do the Jesus part of the narration of the passion not either one of the 2 priests who simply sat by doing nothing. I am not sure about this next bit but at the beginning of mass the priests usually go prostrate before the alter. I know he is an ordained person but does it not blur the line if he is up there with them. This is not the first time this perticular deacon has sort of walked the line. Does anyone have any idea what should be done, or do you think this sort of thing is ligit.

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down_under said:
I was at mass today and I keep running into this similar situation where the priests sit by and let the decon do all the work. He is permeant deacon married with children. he loves to do what really only the priest should be doing. Today he wore the special garment and carried the remainder of comunion away while one priest sat down and did nothing and the other cleared the alter. Does this sound funny to any of you? he also was the person to do the Jesus part of the narration of the passion not either one of the 2 priests who simply sat by doing nothing. I am not sure about this next bit but at the beginning of mass the priests usually go prostrate before the alter. I know he is an ordained person but does it not blur the line if he is up there with them. This is not the first time this perticular deacon has sort of walked the line. Does anyone have any idea what should be done, or do you think this sort of thing is ligit.

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I wasn’t aware there is any Mass on Good Friday.
 
Unless I’m mistaken, Good Friday Liturgy is actually not a Mass per say as there is no consecration.

The Deacon does have specific liturgical roles that will place him at the altar at certain parts during the mass. In a normal Mass, the Deacon is actually supposed to read the Gospel (if one is present). As for what you described, I don’t know about who is required to participate in the passion reading myself, perhaps someone more knowledgable can answer. What was the deacon wearing? Perhaps a dalmatic? Just a diagonal stole? What else did the deacon do that ws questionable?
 
You are referecing many things here.

A Deacon can liturgically do many things that a priest can do. He can expose the Eucharist, do benediction, baptize, marry, etc. He also is to read the Gospel. He also can purify vessels and prepares/cleans the altar during Mass. He can also give homilies.

He cannot actually DO the consecration (although he is nearby, and holds the cup up at the doxology), or do confessions or last rites.

Good Friday service is NOT a Mass. It is the only day in the year that there isn’t a Mass.

Holy Thursday Mass at the end there is usually a procession with the Eucharist. The Deacon may be the one to wear the cope and carry the sacrament.

The instructions state for the deacons as well as the priests to lay prostrate in the Good Friday service.

The one thing you mentioned is that he read the part of Jesus. That should have been the priest. That is the only thing questionable that you mentioned. (If that is even the case in your country). And there may have been a good reason for it.

Perhaps the priests are old, or ill.

You seem to want to think the deacon has a bad agenda here, when actually, it sounds like he’s doing what he should be doing.
 
Yes, continuing on what has already been said, the Good Friday rubrics actually call for the deacon to do more than the priest does. For example, he is supposed to bring forth both the cross and the Blessed Sacrament at the liturgy. (Remember, the Good Friday Liturgy is NOT a Mass and thus has different rubrics.) As a previous poster mentioned, the only really hairy part of what is described here is his reading Jesus’ part in the Passion. However, this does not appear to be illicit because it is always an option for the deacon to read the entire Passion including the words of Christ just as he would any other Gospel. No rubrics specifically exist for the reading of the Passion on Good Friday; however, those for the Passion on Palm Sunday say that “the Passion is read by the deacon or, if there is no deacon, by the priest. It may be read by lay readers, with the part of Christ, if possible, reserved to the priest.” Thus, it does not seem to be an abuse for the deacon to read these parts of the Passion.

Just a few hours ago at St. Peter’s Basilica, they chanted the Passion in Latin and the Pope did NOT chant the parts of Jesus; this duty was left to a deacon (I believe–it was at least another male voice).
 
For those of you who want to get technical, today’s liturgy can be referred to as the Mass of the Pre-Sanctified.

Secondly, it is quite disconcerting to come onto CAF and see all the people questioning the validity of the Deacon’s actions. Perhaps you would be wiser to review the ritual books. They are quite explicit about who is to do what and who can do things at Mass. I think some of the people who come in here and speak negatively of Deacons would be amazed at all of the things the ritual books assign properly to the Deacon, meaning if a Deacon is present, he should do them instead of a Priest.

A Deacon is a member of the clergy. He is ordained and is no longer a lay man. He is entitled to all of the privleges and responsibilities universally given to all the clergy. There are specific privledges given to each rank of the clergy. Please review the things that a Deacon can do before you come to CAF and rant because the Deacon read the Gospel, held the Chalice during the Doxology, or reverenced the altar.
 
MusicMan,

you referenced some things that I brought up, and not the original poster. Perhaps the way I wrote things was confusing, because I am in absolute agreement with you about the dignity of the role of the Deacon. I was merely trying to state what they are supposed to do and not do. (Which I believe was accurate). I in no way was complaining about the fact that they do (or are allowed to do) such things. I don’t want it to appear as such.

If I misspoke something, please let me know and I will edit, if you misunderstood, would you mind reading again?

Thanks!! 🙂
 
Just for clarification, my comments were not directed at agapewolf or any other specific poster. My comments were directed to those who witness a Deacon serving in his ministry and question whether or not a Deacon should be doing that or be vested that way. Ignorance of the Diaconate is rather epidemic, and we would all be wiser to do some research before we rant.
 
MusicMan said:
For those of you who want to get technical, today’s liturgy can be referred to as the Mass of the Pre-Sanctified.
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I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that the Mass of the Pre Sanctified is a term only used in the Eastern rites and not in the Western rite. To be technical…

Or perhaps not…
 
im sorry,but i just dont agree with this,both our priests are 33, 36 they are not old men or ill men. This man is basically doing all the things the priest should be doing except the actuall act of concercration. I have never seen this happen in other parishs. maybe its an american thing I dont know. I mean why are the priests just sitting there doing nothing while this married man carries on doing the duites of the priests. people are asking is this man a priest. He is more dolled up then the priests themselves. We have people who do not come to church but once a year asking is this man a priest even as he kisses his wife after mass. This is simply confusing to everyone envolved. I mean where is the line drawn between priest and deacon. and if it is so vauge as to encompass every thing but the actuall act of concecration itself. then what is the point of making a distinction at all. I mean this man stood there supose to be handing out comunion and we actually feel bad because he is being totally ignored in favor of the priests. I cannot imagine the frustration of going through 5 years of preperation only to be misunderstood and marginalized which is exactly what is happening here. I mean is this just a step to married priests, God help us. here ends the rant.
 
Perhaps you would be wiser to review the ritual books. They are quite explicit about who is to do what and who can do things at Mass. I think some of the people who come in here and speak negatively of Deacons would be amazed at all of the things the ritual books assign properly to the Deacon, meaning if a Deacon is present, he should do them instead of a Priest.
There are specific privledges given to each rank of the clergy. Please review the things that a Deacon can do before you come to CAF and rant because the Deacon read the Gospel, held the Chalice during the Doxology, or reverenced the altar.

okay I AGREE with you. Now explain why this man not a Priest performed a role specifically designated to a priest like I said he played the role of jesus in the passion. This is not the first time or even the second time he has blured the line between the two. and everyone at my parish has noticed. I did become informed about what a deacon is allowed to do I have asked questions and the answers are scarry when I consider what he out to be doing and the things we are watching him do.
 
down_under said:
Perhaps you would be wiser to review the ritual books. They are quite explicit about who is to do what and who can do things at Mass. I think some of the people who come in here and speak negatively of Deacons would be amazed at all of the things the ritual books assign properly to the Deacon, meaning if a Deacon is present, he should do them instead of a Priest.
There are specific privledges given to each rank of the clergy. Please review the things that a Deacon can do before you come to CAF and rant because the Deacon read the Gospel, held the Chalice during the Doxology, or reverenced the altar.
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down_under said:
okay I AGREE with you. Now explain why this man not a Priest performed a role specifically designated to a priest like I said he played the role of jesus in the passion. This is not the first time or even the second time he has blured the line between the two. and everyone at my parish has noticed. I did become informed about what a deacon is allowed to do I have asked questions and the answers are scarry when I consider what he out to be doing and the things we are watching him do.
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You have not shown that the role is specifically reserved for a priest. As to your comment that he is blurring the rules, unless and until you have actually done some research as to what a deacon can and cannot do, and some research as to what his specific robes are, you are just ranting. It is not that hard to do; you should be able to fine the appropriate edition of the GIRM on line. Get off your duff, and become a real Catholic. Do some research; then if you can actually substantiate your claims, speak up.

You seem particularly rattled that he is married. This shows a rather large gap in your understanding of deacons, Church history, and legitimate Church rules (there are lots of married priests in the Eatern rites, which are just as Catholic as the Roman rite).
 
otjm said:
okay I AGREE with you. Now explain why this man not a Priest performed a role specifically designated to a priest like I said he played the role of jesus in the passion. This is not the first time or even the second time he has blured the line between the two. and everyone at my parish has noticed. I did become informed about what a deacon is allowed to do I have asked questions and the answers are scarry when I consider what he out to be doing and the things we are watching him do.
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You have not shown that the role is specifically reserved for a priest. As to your comment that he is blurring the rules, unless and until you have actually done some research as to what a deacon can and cannot do, and some research as to what his specific robes are, you are just ranting. It is not that hard to do; you should be able to fine the appropriate edition of the GIRM on line. Get off your duff, and become a real Catholic. Do some research; then if you can actually substantiate your claims, speak up.

You seem particularly rattled that he is married. This shows a rather large gap in your understanding of deacons, Church history, and legitimate Church rules (there are lots of married priests in the Eatern rites, which are just as Catholic as the Roman rite).

I dont need to state charpter of grim to tell you that this role as christ in the passion narrative is spicaifically liturgically reserved for a priest not any other person. secondly it seems to me that we are in the western roman catholic rite and not in the east why you brought that up I will never know. if we listened to the east all the time on every issue we would still be in the middle of the arian herasy. Thirdly I have no problem with deacons being deacons. I do have a problem with deacons who would rather be married priests doing whatever they seem to think they ought on the alter even in cases like this one for example where he has to flought liturgacal norms. I am a “real catholic” incendently so we can let that part of the conversation go.
 
otjm said:
Get off your duff, and become a real Catholic.
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How on earth did you come by the impression that YOU are in any position to say that to anybody? It seems to me that as “Real Catholics”, we should not be so judgmental and try to be a little bit more charitable towards our brothers and sisters. This person has some concerns which may or may not be legitimate, but beating them up over them is far from the correct response.

down under – Most of what this deacon has been doing actually seems OK to me. Deacons actually have a very important and large role to play in the Church. The reading of the Passion by him does sound like a bit of a slip-up, but other than that things seem OK. If you are really worried about this, you may want to try speaking to a priest at another parish without mentioning any names just to see what his take on things is.

Good luck and God bless 🙂
 
NewGuyInChurch said:
How on earth did you come by the impression that YOU are in any position to say that to anybody? It seems to me that as “Real Catholics”, we should not be so judgmental and try to be a little bit more charitable towards our brothers and sisters. This person has some concerns which may or may not be legitimate, but beating them up over them is far from the correct response.

down under – Most of what this deacon has been doing actually seems OK to me. Deacons actually have a very important and large role to play in the Church. The reading of the Passion by him does sound like a bit of a slip-up, but other than that things seem OK. If you are really worried about this, you may want to try speaking to a priest at another parish without mentioning any names just to see what his take on things is.

Good luck and God bless 🙂
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Thanks New guy in church, that was the answer I was looking for. I did not come here to be attacked and get into side arguments that are irrelevent anyway. let is not dwell on them now. I am a real catholic with real concerns and I was looking for a straight level headed answer to my question. And now I have one. If anyone else has something to add with out attacking my commitment to the faith weather or not you think I might like the comment I would appreciate any further reply.
 
otjm said:
I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that the Mass of the Pre Sanctified is a term only used in the Eastern rites and not in the Western rite. To be technical…

Or perhaps not…
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That is also what it used to be called pre-1962. My 1962 Missal says: “The fourth part, the Communion of Priest and people, completes what used to be known as the Mass of the Presanctified. Today’s liturgy clearly does not constitute a Mass, for there is no Consecration; all who communicate receive sacred particles consecrated at the Mass of the previous day. This form of ‘Mass’ is familiar in the Greek rite.”
 
down_under said:
I dont need to state charpter of grim to tell you that this role as christ in the passion narrative is spicaifically liturgically reserved for a priest not any other person. secondly it seems to me that we are in the western roman catholic rite and not in the east why you brought that up I will never know. if we listened to the east all the time on every issue we would still be in the middle of the arian herasy. Thirdly I have no problem with deacons being deacons. I do have a problem with deacons who would rather be married priests doing whatever they seem to think they ought on the alter even in cases like this one for example where he has to flought liturgacal norms. I am a “real catholic” incendently so we can let that part of the conversation go.
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Unfortunately, you are pretty much wrong about the deacon assuming Christ words during the passion. If you happen to have watched the Good Friday liturgy in Rome (through EWTN or another Catholic media outlet), you will of course have seen that a deacon read Christ’s words, and not the presiding priest (the pope). So, it was perfectly fine for your deacon to have done the same–your parish exercised a legitimate liturgical option.

Have a blessed Easter and be thankful that you have a parish with multiple young priests and a deacon.
 
Have a blessed Easter and be thankful that you have a parish with multiple young priests and a deacon.

I would settle for one orthadox one. projectors pah! tabernacal on the side pah! they can’t even say the our father they have to sing it in a sing-a-long type song where you cant even keep the form of the pray you have to trun it into 3 versus and a refrain conplete with drum roll. pah! you want young priests who make some kind of game for children out of the concration by publicly calling all the children to gather around the alter while he does it. which only means those children are paying attention to anything but. They think it is play time. you want you priests who butcher the creed for whatever reason they should choose or sometimes omit it. pah! give me one priest worth his salt. You are lucky there in america. As bad as it is. or as bad as you think it is. you talk about it. you talk to eachother about what you see. here it is not the same. They can do this to us for as long as they want and nothing will ever be done about it. have a holy easter. but I dont need to be thankful for a man who wishes to be a married priest doing the job of the priest on the alter. Next time I see something I will bring it up to you. dont worry it wont be long. Other things he has done have been much more questionable. I have talked about this situation before and have been told I have a real complaint. If I am wrong on this one that does not change the over all day to day disaster in my parish. in america there are enough so if you dont like it u just move on. not here. the next parish might be a half hour away.
 
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