Mass Quality Control?

[John_Lilburne]

From the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:

“6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.
[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.”

The full document is at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html .

 

[Mrs_Sally]

From the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:

1. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters .

However, 2 of the 3 things the OP questions are not abuses and it isn’t clear if the third one is either.

If he goes directly to the bishop to complain, without having spoken to the priest himself directly, his complaint will likely end up in the circular file. Especially if he is complaining about things that are allowed options in the Mass.

Proper protocol and common courtesy dictate that he speak to the priest first to understand why he has asked to congregation to stand. Only if he does not get an answer from the priest should he go to the bishop. And even then, he will get a better result if he asks a question rather than makes a complaint about a priest who is doing the bishop a favor (the Franciscans are staffing this parish so the bishop doesn’t have to).

Finally, it is not clear if standing was a one time instruction or something that the priest is asking for at every Mass. If it was a specific request for a specific situation, then there is really nothing to discuss.

 

[TimothyH]

First of all, holy **** that was a lot of fast responses.
Second, thanks for informing me that the nicene creed and confetior may be skipped, I feel ignorant now.
Third, I think some more detail is necessary to remedy this situation.
This particular faith community is run by Franciscans. I know they have a reputation of being left leaning. Also, I wonder if that presents some jurisdiction problems. I am not sure who is in charge of them. As far as the gossip goes, relax, I don’t gossip. Several close friends of mine have spoken to the priest personally, in scheduled meetings, to address certain teaching errors going on in RCIA classes and other “extra curricular” activities (book club, bible study, parish ministries etc.) The nun that teaches RCIA is part of LCWR and spews all kinds of nonsense. Anyways, the priest has been totally unwilling listen and has gotten quite ticked-off during these meetings.
Now for the kneeling part. The pews inside the sanctuary are all fitted with kneelers. When the Eucharistic prayer began the entire congregation knelt. The priest realized this a few seconds later and asked everyone to stand. Weird, right? He may have had permission from the Bishop or someone to do this, but I can’t think of any reason. There is plenty of room, there are kneelers, and the congregation was allowed to kneel after communion to pray. So, I am simply confused. He said that he is “worried about people falling.” Maybe we had an injury? I wasn’t sure how big of a deal it was that he was not allowing us to kneel. I like kneeling! It is the Eucharist after all. Anyways, thanks for the responses. If you knew this priest and his history you would know why I would be hesitant to even bring up something about saying mass, but maybe I should. I also didn’t know if there was a specific person in each diocese that handles these questions that I should contact instead of just hitting up the bishop (who’s number is not on my speed dial btw)

The Franciscans have a reputation for being liberal, the nun spews nonsense, and the priest is unwilling to listen, gets mad at meetings, and has some negative yet ambiguous “History” that we just have to take your word about.

That’s not gossip???

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

From the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:

“6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.
[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.”

The full document is at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html .

It’s not charity to accuse people anonymously on internet message boards.

-Tim-

 

[OraLabora]

The Franciscans have a reputation for being liberal, the nun spews nonsense, and the priest is unwilling to listen, gets mad at meetings, and has some negative yet ambiguous “History” that we just have to take your word about.

That’s not gossip???

-Tim-

It’s worse, it’s calumny.

We are also lacking information. First of all, the country. For example in Canada the practice is to kneel at the consecration only, during the EP, while in the US it’s from the Sanctus to the great Amen; those are legitimate and allowed variations, as may be standing if kneelers aren’t available. Secondly, the OP says it’s a Franciscan priest. Is it a Franciscan loaned out to a local parish, or is it a Mass within the Franciscans’ own community? Big difference!

If the latter, there’s very little recourse possible, assuming there’s an abuse, because the superior is responsible for the liturgical choices of his community. Moreover, while I don’t know Franciscans, there may be some differences in rubrics for their community. I know from attending Benedictine Masses that there are differences specific to Benedictines.

It would be helpful if Br. JR would step in here, he’d be able to set this straight.

 

[Ohana]

We used to go to a Catholic Church without kneelers. We stood from the prayer over the gifts (I think) until after communion. The explanation given at that time (80’s) had to do with being a royal priesthood/of all the people. Note that it was made clear that we were not being equated with ordained clergy, but more in terms of being made worthy to carry on evangelization to our world. In fact, Mass was very reverent and spirit filled. I will follow whatever we are told to do, but posture has nothing to do with inward reverence, only with outward appearance. People can be as irreverent or inattentive kneeling as standing. I had occasion to go to a Church like this a few weeks ago. People bowed when the rubic say to do so in the creed, and at the elevation of both the Body and Blood of Christ. Again, the Mass was not irreverent. A lot depends on the nature of the congregation, and the quality of catechesis.

 

[TimothyH]

Is it a Franciscan loaned out to a local parish, or is it a Mass within the Franciscans’ own community? Big difference!

If the latter, there’s very little recourse possible, assuming there’s an abuse, because the superior is responsible for the liturgical choices of his community. Moreover, while I don’t know Franciscans, there may be some differences in rubrics for their community. I know from attending Benedictine Masses that there are differences specific to Benedictines.

I was thinking that as well, that it could have just been a difference between Franciscan rubrics and secular, diocisean rubrics.

-Tim-

 

[Exorcist]

I am in serious need of a solution. The priest at my local parish refuses to follow the Mass rubrics. He makes the parish say the apostles creed, not the nicene creed. We skip the confetior every mass. And most egregiously (in my opinion), he had the entire congregation stand-up during the consecration part of the mass. Sorry, I don’t know what that part is called, but I do know we are supposed to be standing. What am we supposed to do about this? I know someone has spoken with the priest before to no avail. And I am sure someone has told the bishop already. What am I supposed to do?

Do you want an honest answer? Find a new parish. You need to be fed and based on the tenor of your posting you are starving right now.

As others have pointed out, the creed/confetior as you present are non-issues. You need to get over that. The posture matter is wrong. I seriously doubt your pastor is going to listen to (name removed by moderator)ut if he’s directing this so my advice is to move along.

 

[TimothyH]

Relating to gossip and Mrs. Sally: 1. this thread is about who I should talk to assuming the priest is not an option, not about whether I do or do not gossip. ASSUME the priest is not an option for the sake of discussion. 2. I didn’t feel like explaining it since it has nothing to do with the discussion, but here goes: Its not gossip since my extremely close friend and I planned the meeting and then he executed the meeting because he had the closer relationship with the priest, and then reported to me his findings-not gossip it’s called communication. 4. I don’t need, nor did I ask, for your preaching. Save it for someone else on a different forum. I know what the church teaches, but I am asking for an expert on Mass Rubrics and Church organization which you don’t seem to know much about. Focus on the issue here, not me. Assume the ground work I said is true, now what should I do…It’s how discussions work.
In other words, is there a particular person that diocese have assigned to deal with potential problems in the mass?

Thanks superamazingman, for the clarification.

Call you diocese or go to their website and look for the “Office of Divine Worship” or “ODW” something similar to that.

-Tim-

 

[MissBorgia]

our preist adds words to the eucharistic prayer. so much fun. NOT.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

One of the enemies greatest tools is a wedge. He will get it in any way possible and then use it to separate us from each other. Communication will resolve many issues. As we are in a battle (Rev. 12), we can expect situations to be presented in which the easy solution is to divide without full knowledge. It takes courage to face someone with a disagreement, but we owe it to the church to face ours fears and step forth in faith. We have no idea how God may be using our small part to further the Kingdom.

1Cor16:13 Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. NASB

PAX