Matthew 25 and works

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porthos11

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I find it strange that when defending the importance of works of charity in our salvation, I rarely see Matthew 25 (the last judgment) cited. More often, we turn to James 2 and the other Pauline epitles. Shouldn’t Matthew’s passage be a strong backup to the passage of James?

Or am I just missing it? For example, the Catholic Answers Scripture Reference does not even cite Matthew 25.
 
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porthos11:
I find it strange that when defending the importance of works of charity in our salvation, I rarely see Matthew 25 (the last judgment) cited. More often, we turn to James 2 and the other Pauline epitles. Shouldn’t Matthew’s passage be a strong backup to the passage of James?

Or am I just missing it? For example, the Catholic Answers Scripture Reference does not even cite Matthew 25.
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When I am writing on the subject I always refer to Matthew’s Gospel, especially this particular passage.

Maggie
 
I’ve run into full dispensationalists who think this passage has nothing to do with them, because they are part of the church era, and it is “not about the church.” (they think different rules apply to people depending on what era or dispensation they are part of). It probably depends on who you are discussing salvation with, whether or not it will be of any use to quote the sheep and goats.
 
HI Porthos,

Shouldn’t Matthew’s passage be a strong backup to the passage of James?

Of course. But it is especially a dire warning to those of us who rely on piling up the rosaries and the ways of the cross without practicing the works of mercy.

Verbum
 
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Pug:
I’ve run into full dispensationalists who think this passage has nothing to do with them, because they are part of the church era, and it is “not about the church.” (they think different rules apply to people depending on what era or dispensation they are part of). It probably depends on who you are discussing salvation with, whether or not it will be of any use to quote the sheep and goats.
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Hooooboy. Just when I thought I’ve heard everything. :rolleyes:
 
I think Matt. 25 is a great passage to use. I actually start there most of the time and use the other verses to back it up. My favorite part is how the sheep and goats don’t know why they’re being saved/condemded, so they can’t know FOR SURE if they are saved.

P.S. Amen ad verbi Verborum
 
Hello Porthos 11,

If you read the

JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

you will see that Jesus is, in all the important areas, excluded from the declaration. St. Paul is quoted or refferenced at least 10 times more often than Jesus. If you are going to sit down with the Protestants to answer the question, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?”, and if you were not evil, is there any reason you would not start with how Jesus answers the question?

NAB LUK 18:18

"Good teacher, **what must I do to share in everlasting life? **"Jesus said to him, “Why call me ‘good’? None is good but God alone. You know the commandments:
‘You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not kill.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear dishonest witness.
Honor your father and your mother.’”

NAB REV 22:12

“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”

NAB MAT 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
Steven Merten:
Hello Porthos 11,

If you read the

JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
you will see that Jesus is, in all the important areas, excluded from the declaration. St. Paul is quoted or refferenced at least 10 times more often than Jesus. If you are going to sit down with the Protestants to answer the question, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?”, and if you were not evil, is there any reason you would not start with how Jesus answers the question?
Hi Steve,

'Xactly. This is what puzzles me. I find it really weird that Catholic apologists cite James and Paul most often, but of all people, Jesus is hardly referenced, especially at his scariest in Matthew 25.

Any other ideas why? I really want to know.
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porthos11:
Hi Steve,

'Xactly. This is what puzzles me. I find it really weird that Catholic apologists cite James and Paul most often, but of all people, Jesus is hardly referenced, especially at his scariest in Matthew 25.

Any other ideas why? I really want to know.
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Hello Porthos11,

I believe many things cause it. The devil. Man’s desire to get something for nothing. St. Paul’s writings easily being read as in opposition to Jesus teachings. The cultish desire to be the one who found some remote bible verse which sets them apart as one of God’s chosen few.

I have heard that Martin Luther stated that he could steal, murder and adulter and as long as he had “faith” he would go to heaven. Where does Jesus indicate this?

The biggest problem is St. Paul’s writings saying the law is out. The problem is that St. Paul is reffering to the law of circumcision and the Pharisee created laws and he is not saying that God’s commandments are out. However, people distort St. Paul’s writtings into saying that God’s commandments are out. Of course to do so they must turn a blind eye to Jesus’ teachings. St. Peter warns us not to be confused about St. Paul’s writtings.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

NAB ACT 15:1

Some men came down to Antioch from Judea and began to teach the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” This created dissension and much controversy between them and Paul and Barnabas.NAB ACT 21:20

“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have come to believe, all of them staunch defenders of the law. Yet they have been informed that you teach the Jews who live among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, to give up the circumcision of their children, and to renounce their customs.” NAB PHI 3:5

(St. Paul is speaking.)
I was circumcised on the eighth day, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrew origins; in legal observance I was a Pharisee, and so zealous that I persecuted the church. I was above reproach when it came to justice based on the law. (GAL 6:13)NAB 1CO 7:19

(St. Paul is speaking.)
Circumcision counts for nothing, and its lack makes no difference either. **What matters is keeping God’s commandments.**NAB ROM 2:13

(St. Paul is speaking.)
For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; it is those who keep it who will be declared just. When Gentiles who do not have the law keep it as by instinct, these men although without the law serve as a law for themselves. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts. Their conscience bears witness together with that law, and their thoughts will accuse or defend them on the day when, in accordance with the gospel I preach, God will pass judgment on the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.NAB 2PE 3:14 Preparation for the Coming.

So, beloved, while waiting for this, make every effort to be found without stain or defilement, and at peace in his sight. Consider that our Lord’s patience is directed toward salvation. Paul, our beloved brother, wrote you this in the spirit of wisdom that is his, dealing with these matters as he does in all his letters. There are certain passages in them hard to understand. The ignorant and the unstable distort them (just as they do the rest of Scripture) to their own ruin. You are forewarned, beloved brothers. Be on your guard lest you be led astray by the error of the wicked, and forfeit the security you enjoy.
 
Steven Merten:
***JOINT DECLARATION ***
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
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In direct reference to this document I think that it is important to keep in mind who it is that’s discussing the issue. The reason (I think) that only Paul and James are referenced is because it was with Paul and James the problem arose. Luther based all his ideas of “sola fidei” from Paul and tossed James because James cleary contradicted Luther’s view. So, in the discussion they delt with the areas that promblems were coming from. I would aliken it to how the Church doesn’t call a council and define a doctrine until that idea is challenged.
 
I’ve used the example of Matthew 25 several times on these forums. Here we have Jesus himself describing the Last Judgment in terms that seem to make our salvation depend entirely on our works!
 
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JLove:
In direct reference to this document I think that it is important to keep in mind who it is that’s discussing the issue. The reason (I think) that only Paul and James are referenced is because it was with Paul and James the problem arose. Luther based all his ideas of “sola fidei” from Paul and tossed James because James cleary contradicted Luther’s view. So, in the discussion they delt with the areas that promblems were coming from. I would aliken it to how the Church doesn’t call a council and define a doctrine until that idea is challenged.
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Luther did not believe that people’s decision to feed the poor or let them starve would effect their salvation. Luther also, do doubt, believed that removing Jesus from the scriptures would harm his cause. Removing James, on the other hand, he thought might not be so objectionable. In the end Luther decided to leave James (and Jesus) in his version of the bible while throwing other biblical books out.

Why continue the insanity of leaving Jesus out of salvation debates? The least the Church can do is to put a big “WARNING! This Catholic Lutheran Joint Declaration on how to go to heaven excludes Jesus teachings!” on this document. I have heard many people decieved by this document.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
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porthos11:
I find it strange that when defending the importance of works of charity in our salvation, I rarely see Matthew 25 (the last judgment) cited. More often, we turn to James 2 and the other Pauline epitles. Shouldn’t Matthew’s passage be a strong backup to the passage of James?

Or am I just missing it? For example, the Catholic Answers Scripture Reference does not even cite Matthew 25.
Click to expand...
** I use it all the time because it’s one of the best passages on this whole topic and NO ONE ever has a counter, because there is none.**
 
I have seen this passage cited in virtually every argument I have read against “sola scriptura–sola fide”
 
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porthos11:
I find it strange that when defending the importance of works of charity in our salvation, I rarely see Matthew 25 (the last judgment) cited. More often, we turn to James 2 and the other Pauline epitles. Shouldn’t Matthew’s passage be a strong backup to the passage of James?

Or am I just missing it? For example, the Catholic Answers Scripture Reference does not even cite Matthew 25.
Click to expand...
I agree, that is one of the first verses I go to when trying to backup works.
 
Steven Merten:
Why continue the insanity of leaving Jesus out of salvation debates?
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Can you really say that Christ is being left out? After all it is His apostles who speak on His behalf. So, when we quote Paul or James we quote Christ Himself. (see Luke 10:16)
 
What about Mathew 19:16-20? I would think that is another good passages for us to use.

Cheers,

Francis 🙂
 
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porthos11:
I find it strange that when defending the importance of works of charity in our salvation, I rarely see Matthew 25 (the last judgment) cited. More often, we turn to James 2 and the other Pauline epitles. Shouldn’t Matthew’s passage be a strong backup to the passage of James?

Or am I just missing it? For example, the Catholic Answers Scripture Reference does not even cite Matthew 25.
Click to expand...
👍 👍 👍 EXACTLY!!! 👍 👍 👍

To me, there is no more definitive proof in the whole Bible that speaks to the necessity of good deeds, and it comes directly from the lips of Christ!!! When I talk with a Protestant who claims works aren’t necessary, I say, “that’s not what Jesus said.”
“Huh?”
“How do you explain Matt. 25:14-46? The entire message of the passage is ‘do, sow, reap, feed, work, care, minister’ – actions!”
“Ummm, well, you see…”
 
Hello All,

So who do you think Jesus is pointing Matthew 25 at? I think that Jesus is pointing Matthew 25 at the Catholic Church. I think He is saying if you (Catholic Church) love Me, you will care for the poor.
“I assure you, as often as you did it for one of my least brothers, you did it for me.” “Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.”

However, most homilies, Bishop letters and warnings from the Pope seem to demand that the state and nations pay off third world debt, increase welfare, and be more generous. Do the state and nations (those outside the bosom of the Catholic Church) recieve eternal life for feeding the poor? I have heard that Catholics pay, on average, only 1% of their income to God and not a 10% tithe. Yet it is the world not the Church that Church leaders focus thier reprimands toward on feeding the poor. If the world feeds the poor as Church leaders demand, will Jesus say to the World Bank, America and Western Nations, “Come. You have my Father’s blessing! Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food…”

Who do you think Church leaders should demand to feed the poor or burn in hell, the world or Catholics?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
While Matt 25ff could be considered as directed to the whole Church, it seems to be directed mainly to each individual person. Historically, the Church has engaged in the corporal and spiritual works of mercy on a corporate basis–hospitals, Catholic charities, schools, orphanages, etc. But we as individuals also have a responsibility to the needful among us, on a personal basis.
 
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