Matthew 7:21

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Singinbeauty:
Somehow I think we are on the same page but I see it a bit differently than some of you. See, I don’t see that the sin that we commit as dangerous to our salvation AS LONG AS we counteract it with repentance. Once we repent to God for our sins it is done away with. But if we don’t care to repent and don’t do what is right then our hearts aren’t right with God and our ‘faith’ that we claim is FALSE. It’s useless. God views it as lukewarm and He doesn’t appreciate that.
I would say that we are really close to being on the same page, but I want to warn you as your brother in Christ not to take the attitude that so many “sola fide” Christians take by minimising (or outright denying) the importance of works. Regardless of the terminaology that we are debating here, it all comes down to the fact that if we are not doing works [out of charity] we are severly jeopardizing our salvation.

I am going to use your same translation but add some more emphasis:
**Philippians 2:12-16 (New Living Translation)
**12Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God’s saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. **13For God is working in you, giving you the DESIRE to obey him **and the power to do what pleases him.
14In everything you do, stay away from complaining and arguing, 15so that no one can speak a word of blame against you. You are to live clean, innocent lives as children of God in a dark world full of crooked and perverse people. Let your lives shine brightly before them. 16Hold tightly to the word of life, so that when Christ returns, I will be proud that I did not lose the race and that my work was not useless.
So you see, God gives us the desire to do His will, but we must cooperate with His graces that he bestows on us or else we are not only lukewarm, but we mock Him by calling ourselves Christian.
 
E.E.N.S.:
I would say that we are really close to being on the same page, but I want to warn you as your brother in Christ not to take the attitude that so many “sola fide” Christians take by minimising (or outright denying) the importance of works. Regardless of the terminaology that we are debating here, it all comes down to the fact that if we are not doing works [out of charity] we are severly jeopardizing our salvation.
I am confused as to where I am minimizing ‘works’ and their importance. In my book it’s kind of a ‘catch 22’… You can’t have one without the other. :🤷: I guess one thing that we have to do is DEFINE ‘works’. In your next post could you let me know what the catholic stance is on what ‘works’ ARE. That probably will help. 🙂
So you see, God gives us the desire to do His will, but we must cooperate with His graces that he bestows on us or else we are not only lukewarm, but we mock Him by calling ourselves Christian.
Definitely. With the free will God has given us we have to CHOOSE God and His law. But my stance is… if we have TRUE faith the choice is obvious. We choose God. And even if we aren’t PERFECT in obeying God we do strive very hard because of the faith we have.
 
For all who read this thread, [Catholics, Orthodox, Protestant, or whoever] I do not wish to argue your view, but do not think that you can get away with just professing your faith in Christ, or merely belonging in a particular Faith (both of these I have seen, as many of you have), but we must participate with the graces bestowed upon us and “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.”

We are saved by grace through faith working in charity.

Your brother in Christ,
~Lee

(Remember, I am here with all of you as well, let us encourage each other to “run the race to win,” as St. Paul would say (cf 1 Cor 9: 24-27)
 
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Singinbeauty:
I am confused as to where I am minimizing ‘works’ and their importance. In my book it’s kind of a ‘catch 22’… You can’t have one without the other. :🤷: I guess one thing that we have to do is DEFINE ‘works’. In your next post could you let me know what the catholic stance is on what ‘works’ ARE. That probably will help. 🙂 .
I would love to (but let me remind you that our conscience will play a big part in it as well, and as Christians we should ever strive to have a properly formed conscience. Also we find great depth in the Jesus words…If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there . . . the perfect way of the Christian life. . . . This sermon contains . . . all the precepts needed to shape one’s life.)

**1473 **The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”

**2447 **The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:

He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none and he who has food must do likewise. But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you. If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

**1460 **The *penance *the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent’s personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, “provided we suffer with him.”

The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of “him who strengthens” us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth “fruits that befit repentance.” These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.
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Singinbeauty:
Definitely. With the free will God has given us we have to CHOOSE God and His law. But my stance is… if we have TRUE faith the choice is obvious. We choose God. And even if we aren’t PERFECT in obeying God we do strive very hard because of the faith we have.
I agree, but we shouldn’t deceive ourselves into a false security, or into complacency. Are you/we truly denying yourself/ourselves and picking up your/our cross(es) and following in Christ’s footsteps? We all need to do this, for Our Lord told us that this is the way to eternal life.
 
Some questions that I ask myself each day:

How have I produced good fruit today?
How have I picked up my cross today?
How have I denied myself today?
How have I loved God above all else today?
How have I loved my neighbor today?
What virtues did I practice today?
What vices have I overcome?
How have I served the poor? (after all, they are our stewards)
How have I been a light of Christ?
Did I spread Truth, or did I fall into vain gossip?
Have I been faithful to my baptismal promises?

(etc. etc. etc.)

Do I believe that my works save me? By no means! But God gives me the graces to obey His will - we must be obedient to His will if we wish to call ourselves His children. Like you said, true faith will have works, if it doesn’t then it is a dead faith.

Let us encourage each other towards this truth, even if we disagree in other areas, let us not fail here!
 
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Singinbeauty:
Haven’t I said throughout this WHOLE thread that through faith comes the works? Yes, faith is dead without works because that would mean that the faith you have is not TRUE faith. Because you can’t have TRUE faith without the good works coming as the fruit of it. It IS hard to live a true christian life. Believe me, I KNOW. But because of my TRUE faith I am driven to live a life that Christ would approve of. Does this make sense? You can’t deny that if you have TRUE faith you can ignore the Holy Spirit when it demands that you do something. You can try but I doubt it’s very easy to ignore. In fact I know it isn’t easy.
Yes you can have true faith without works. The devil has all the faith in the world in God and he more than us know his power. What we need more than anything is God like LOVE. Fath, Hope and Love which of these is the greatest. Faith is merely believing in something you need live to produce the spiritual and corpal works of mercy that come from loving faith. Love by the way is a work.

God Bless
Kathleen
 
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Singinbeauty:
I guess one thing that we have to do is DEFINE ‘works’. In your next post could you let me know what the catholic stance is on what ‘works’ ARE. That probably will help. 🙂
NAB MAT 25:31

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ **And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” **
 
Here’s another good one from John chapter 5- (NAB translation)
28] Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29] and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
 
E.E.N.S. said:
(Objection: Our actions are of no consequence; Jesus did all that’s necessary for our salvation.)

7:21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

We must do the will of the Father to enter heaven. Professing Jesus as Lord isn’t enough. Even those that work miracles by the name of Jesus and who preach the Gospel in His name are not assured a place in heaven. Through false teachings, the devil has convinced many people today that they have a “free ticket” to heaven. This is NOT biblical and those who believe this theology are in jeopardy of losing their salvation.

Amen. I believe this is how Satan works. Just like in the garden, he tells man, “You shall not surely die.” It’s the same way today. Wordly religion tells man you don’t have to be baptized into Christ in order to be saved (in opposition to Mark 16:16); you don’t have to obey to be saved (in opposition to Hebrews 5:9); and you don’t have to worry about falling away (in opposition to 1 Tim. 4:1, Gal. 5:4 and Hebrews 4:11). But God’s Word stands as truth, no matter what “spin” man tries to place on it.
 
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Matt14:
Amen. I believe this is how Satan works. Just like in the garden, he tells man, “You shall not surely die.” It’s the same way today. Wordly religion tells man you don’t have to be baptized into Christ in order to be saved (in opposition to Mark 16:16); you don’t have to obey to be saved (in opposition to Hebrews 5:9); and you don’t have to worry about falling away (in opposition to 1 Tim. 4:1, Gal. 5:4 and Hebrews 4:11). But God’s Word stands as truth, no matter what “spin” man tries to place on it.
Amen brother.
 
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