May be we should change some of our Christmas songs?

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Athanasiy

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Last Christmas , when our family was celebrating the Christmas holiday as the custom is , together with my nearest relatives in our parents village, I noticed that some of the carols which the children had been singing , includes the words , which in my opinion have the offensive or abusive accusations to the people of Jewish nation.

Its an old , wide spread and famous Christmas song
In Ukrainian it sounds like this ;

-Нова радсть стала
Яка небувала…

-Жиди розiпя’ли , мучили карали …

Its normal , that some not religious or even the Jews who are the Orthodox Christians are coming to celebrate the Christmas in the village together with their friends.
And I think when they hear these words in the Christmas songs , it sounds as insulting.
I believe that the good news about the birth of the Savior , are indeed a good news for every body.
It’s a good news for every nation , every nationality , it also must be the good news for the Jews.
I am sure this rhetorics is present also in the other languages in the Christmas carols.
May be the time has come when we should to change some of our old Christmas carols , and to add to our caroling more suitable words for the Christmas songs , which let the humanity know about the coming of the Saviour.
 
Athanasiy said:
-Нова радсть стала
Яка небувала…

-Жиди розiпя’ли , мучили карали …
Click to expand...
This is an interesting idea. I don’t think anything that’s anti-Jewish has a place in Christianity, and Vatican II said the same thing. In the Western rite, all the prayers and hymns that could be misunderstood as anti-Semitic were removed or revised.

Could you please provide a translation for the non-Ukrainian speakers among us?
 
In the beginning it says ;
  • The good news has come , which never was heard before…
and in the middle of the song , there are the words like these ;
  • ‘’ the Jews crucified , … by torture and scourging …’’
Is it not the same in the English Christmas songs and the Christmas songs in another languages ?

The matter is that I did not heard these words in the Christmas concerts on the Radio or TV , or some where in the Christmas songs performense in the philharmonic society , but among children , who traditionally singing the Christmas carols , going from house to house , you can hear these words in use.
May be its a duty of the secondary school teachers to re-educate and reconsider the language of the songs , during the celebration of this beautiful Christian feast.
 
These songs of Christmas, Bogojavlenije have often different words in different towns. Here is how I know Нова радість стала-
  1. Нова радість стала,
    Яка не бувала:
    Над вертепом звізда ясна
    Увесь світ осіяла.
    1. Де Христос родився,
      З Діви воплотився,
      Яка чоловік пеленами
      Убого оповився.
    2. Пастушки з ягнятком
      Перед тим Дитятком
      На колінця припадають
      Христа Бога прославляють.
    3. Ангели співають,
      Славу возвіщають.
      Як на небі, так на землі
      Мир проповідають.
    4. І ми теж співаймо,
      Бога прославляймо.
      Із Марії рожденного
      Щиро всі благословляймо.
    5. Просим тебе, Царю,
      Небесний Владарю,
      Дару літа щасливії
      Цього дому господарю.
    6. Цьому господарю,
      Всій його родині,
      Даруй щастя православній
      Рідній неньці Україні!
    7. Дай нам в мирі жити
      І тебе хвалити,
      А по смерті в Царстві твоїм
      Повік-віку жити.
 
Володимирe Вiтаю !!!
Я не знайшов у цiй колядi
того рядка

А ви знаете повнiстю оцю коляду … ? ;

…По цiлому свiтi
Сталася новина …

Евреi спiймали
мучили карали
мучили карали
На хрест розiп’яли…
 
DL82 said:
This is an interesting idea. I don’t think anything that’s anti-Jewish has a place in Christianity, and Vatican II said the same thing. In the Western rite, all the prayers and hymns that could be misunderstood as anti-Semitic were removed or revised.

Could you please provide a translation for the non-Ukrainian speakers among us?
Click to expand...
Volodimir brings the exact literal version of the carol , which I have mentioned , and there is no words like these there.
He probably knows many carols.
And I have asked him , about the other carol , which I think can be the one , which I mean.
In some countries of the East Europe , still there are the tradition on Christmas to sing the Christmas songs going from house to house.
You can see the adults who are coming to their relatives and neighbors , congratulating them with this happy event of the birth of Christ.
Young lads usually visit the houses of another young people , singing the carols in front of the entrance door , before the elder of the house will invite them to the feast table.
The Little children are expecting to get some gifts from the people , during this Christmas evening , by singing the carols.

The Christmas tradition in Ukraine is very beautiful.
On the West of Ukraine , many people , just go to the village these days , because the Christmas atmosphere is very joyful there.

I think these tradition is not only in Ukraine , but in some other Easts European countries.
And some old carols indeed mention about the ‘’ cruel Jewish ‘’ .

We do not deny the testimonies , which are written in the four Gospels , and the events which took place by the Pontius Pilate , by the Sanhedrin.
But it should not give the Jew the label of ‘ the Christ killer ‘ or ‘ the criminal’ , just because he is the Jew.
It can be that among those who can celebrate the Christmas there can be found the people who do not even believe that Christ ever existed , but who are convicted that the Jews were the ones who killed him.
It should n’t be like this , right ?
I do not believe that it is a Christian , to proclaim until this day that some one guilty because of his nationality.
The Saviour came to this world.
And every body should know , why ?
The Salvation.
The deliverance from the slavery of sin.
Who is guilty ?
The sin of all man - no one excluded !
 
Some songs have nationalistic, unforuntate words like these. Do not sing them - sing Christian words.

Some of course are worse even:

Вовком хай завиють москалі! Хай жиди заверещать як свині!

Свято нині на моїй землі! Новий Рік і Коляда ідуть по Україні!

Слава Нації!

СМЕРТЬ ВОРОГАМ
 
I think , it’s a duty of the schools to teach , and to warn the children about not permitted carols expressions .
There must be some hours , or hour , let’s say at the beginning of December , when the children must learn about not permitted carol’s expressions , before the coming of Christmas.
Probably I know some one , who can manage to explore this question , and who knows if it should be managed through the Ministry of education , or through the local regional secondary schools councils or council , probably I can find it out.
Because it is evident that the carols which the children are singing in one area , in the next region , is totally different carols can be in use.
But my question was more addressed to the international use of the Christmas carols.
And , for the reconsideration the language expressions of some carols locutions and vocabularies.
Because in many East European countries these Christmas traditions of singing the carols ,
are alive , and also in practice.
 
Well, without knowing that particular one it’s hard to say if the words are inappropriate. By itself I wouldn’t necessarily say that that the lyrics you posted are offensive, although in all honesty I would probably think twice before singing that in front of people who may be offended. I don’t really see the need for that to be mentioned in Christmas carols (but again, I don’t know that particular one, so it’s hard to really make a fair call on that).
 
I can not say about another languages .
It would be interesting to hear , about the types of the Christmas carols in Romanian or Polish .

The matter is that , there are many different Christmas carols in Ukrainian , which children know , and they are in use , and widespread .
Добрий вечір тобі, пане Господарю!
Добрий вечір тобі, пане Господарю:
Радуйся!
Ой, радуйся, земле,
Син Божий народився.
Застеляйте столи, та все килимами:
Радуйся,
Ой, радуйся, земле,
Син Божий народився.
Та кладіть калачі з ярої пшениці:
Радуйся!
Ой, радуйся, земле,
Син Божий народився.
Бо прийдуть до тебе три празники
В гості: радуйся!
Ой, радуйся, земле,
Син Божий народився.
Ой перший же празник – то Різдво
Христове: радуйся!
Ой, радуйся, земле,
Син Божий народився.
А другий же празник – Василя
Святого: радуйся!
Ой, радуйся, земле,
Син Божий народився.
А третій же празник – Святе
Водохреще: радуйся!
Ой, радуйся, земле,
Син Божий народився.
А що перший празник зішел тобі
Втіху:радуйся!
Ой, радуйся, земле,
Син Божий народився.
А що другий празник зішле тобі
Щастя: радуйся!
Ой, радуйся, земле,
Син Божий народився.
А що третій празник зішле всім нам
Долю: радуйся!
Ой, радуйся, земле,
Син Божий народився.
З Різдвом Христовим! (Й. Стуцюк)
Хай за вікном хуртеча злиться,
А нам співати і радіти.
Горить ялинка у світлиці –
З Різдвом Христовим, любі діти!
Дніпро обняв дзвінкі Карпати,
А в хаті вже кутя і сіно.
Дозвольте заколядувати:
  • З Різдвом Христовим, Україно!
    Маленький Ісусик
    Маленький Ісусик не спить, не дрімає,
    Своїми рученятами весь світ обіймає.
    І вашу хатину, і вашу родину,
    І всю Україну – Христос ся рождає!
    Я маленький пастушок
    Я маленький пастушок
    Загорнувся в кожушок
    На скрипочку граю,
    Вас усіх вітаю.
    А ви, люди, чуйте,
    Коляду готуйте –
    Яблучка, горішки
    Дітям для потішки.
    Колядин, колядин…
    Колядин, колядин,
    Я у батька один.
    Мене не дивуйте
    Ковбасу лаштуйте.
    Колядин, колядин,
    Я у батька один.
    По коліна кожушок, -
    Дайте, дядьку, пиріжок!
    Щедрик, ведрик
    Щедрик, ведрик,
    Дайте вареник,
    Грудочку кашки,
    Кільце ковбаски,
    Решетце овса
    І колядка вся!
    Сію, сію, посіваю
    Сію, сію, засіваю,
    З Новим роком вас вітаю!
    На той новий рік,
    Щоб вродило краще,
    Ніж торік!
    Колядник (О.Кобець)
    Під ногами сніг рипучий,
    Вітер стріхи обміта:
    Нині день ясний, блискучий –
    День Народження Христа!
    Колядка (Н. Мудрик- Мриц)
    Ой ішла Колядка
    Вулицями в місті,
    У стічках сріблястих,
    В світлому намисті.
    Іскорки веселі
    На сніг розсипала,
    „Божий син родився!” –
    Усіх сповіщала.
    Сію, сію, засіваю
    Сію, сію, засіваю,
    Вашу хату не минаю,
    З Новим роком йду до хати,
    Щось вам маю віншувати:
    Щоб діти всі здорові,
    Їли кашу всі готові,
    Щоб вам була з них потіха.
    А нам грошей з півміха!
    Коляда українських діточок
    Ой, Ісусе любий, кращий, як ті квіти,
    Пригорни до себе нині українські діти.
    Щоби були добрі, щоби були щасні,
    І розумні, і здорові, мов ті квіти красні.
    Ти, Дитино Божа, на пахучім сіні,
    Дай нам щастя й кращу долю рідній Україні.
    Поколядь
    Віншуєм вам щастям, здоров”ям,
    Щастям, здоров”ям, святим Рождеством!
    Гей, дай же, Боже, два стоги гречки,
    Два стоги гречки на пиріжечки!
    Коляд, коляд, колядниця
    Коляд, коляд, колядниця,
    Добра з медом паляниця.
    ( Добра з маком паляниця )
    А без меду (маку) не така,
    Дайте, дядьку, п’ятака !
    Колядка
    Бігла теличка та й з березничка
    Та й стала.
    Я тобі, дядьку, заколядую,
    Дай сала.
    Бігла теличка та й березничка
    Та в дядьків двір.
    Я тобі, дядьку, заколядую,
    То дай пиріг.
    Колядка
    У Вифлеємі –
    В стайні на сіні –
    Христос родився
    Всім на спасіння!
    Люди, радійте,
    Христа вітайте,
    Божому сину
    Славу віддайте!
    Слава на небі
    Богу Святому,
    На землі спокій
    Роду людському!
    Щедрівонька щедрувала
    Щедрівонька щедрувала,
    під віконце підбігала,
    Що ти, тітко, напекла,
    Винось нам до вікна.
    Що ти, дядьку, нам напік,
    Винось нам аж на тік.
    Мати казала, щоб дали сала,
    Батько сварився, щоб не барився.
    Сієм, вієм, посіваєм
    Сієм, вієм, посіваєм,
    З Новим роком вас вітаєм
    На щастя, на здоров’я
    На Новий рік!
    Щоб вам вродило краще, ніж торік.
    Коноплі під стелю,
    А льон до коліна,
    Щоб вам, господарі,
    Голова не боліла !
    Щедрик-ведрик
    Щедрик-ведрик, дайте вареник,
    Грудочку кашки, кільце ковбаски.
    А як каші не дасте, м Візьму вола за ріжок,
    Поведу на торжок,
    Куплю собі пиріжок.
    Дайте коляду,
    Бо вам хату завалю.
    Дайте книш,
    Бо напущу вам в хату миш.
    Дайте пиріг,
    Бо потягну хату за ріг.
    Щастя, здоров’я господарю бажаємо
    Щастя, здоров’я господарю бажаємо.
    Щедрий вечір, хато-світлице,
    Сійся-родися, житечко, пшениця!
    Сію, вію, посіваю,
    З Новим роком вас вітаю.
 
Sorry , it did not work out to post it with the divisional distance

The most popular are theses ones ;

Добрий вечір тобі
-Радуйся світ ( Rejoice the world )
-Нова радість стала
-Тиха ніч ‘ quiet night , peaceful night’ ( this one is famous in English.)
-Небо і земля
-По всьому світу стала новина

This last one mentioned in the list has these words . ( at least , lets say …in some areas , you can hear it in use from the kids. )
But this last one , has a few versions.
And I think it is changed , or may be the original version does not include these words at all

( Евреi впiймали
мучили карали
мучили карали
на хрест розiп’яли )

( The Jews have caught him
Tortured and scourged
Tortured and scourged
And crucified on the cross )

Our national singer – Ruslana , the winner of Euro vision , when she performs it , it’s sounds differently in words.
(God forbid that it would sound like that of course.)
Also when this Christmas carol is performed by the Church choirs , or national choirs - there are different words in use.
So , it means that neither official , nor national or popular version do not include these words.
It just not appertained additional part , which are in use only in some areas and probably not broad.
 
THutch04 said:
Well, without knowing that particular one it’s hard to say if the words are inappropriate. By itself I wouldn’t necessarily say that that the lyrics you posted are offensive, although in all honesty I would probably think twice before singing that in front of people who may be offended. I don’t really see the need for that to be mentioned in Christmas carols (but again, I don’t know that particular one, so it’s hard to really make a fair call on that).
Click to expand...
Yes.
Lets say , I am a Jew .
Who has been invited by the friends to the Christmas table , to celebrate with them this traditional feast.
Usually , to hear the carol in the children’s performance on Christmas , its probably the essential liking during this festivity.
And its indeed offensive , inappropriate , and not permitted , when there are the words like these.

I think before we preach and proclaim the Good News of the birth of the Saviour ,
we should know that ;
-There is nothing bad of being a Jewish.
-Its not a crime to be the Jewish nationality.
I am writing in this way because of the old believe about the Jews as the Christ’s killers.

Exploring the origins of the conception of the Christian faith , who originated Christianity , who spread the Christianity , we discovering that it has to do with the Jews , and also
  • Before Jesus is a Messiah - He is Meshiah.
    Also , in the first decades of the Church history Christians were considered as one of the Jewish sects…
What I mean is , it’s unacceptable to represent the Good News , blaming the Jews again and again as a Christ’s killers.
Our faith is not a racial believe.
How we can expect the conversion of the Jews , then ?
It does not aim to the Jewish conversion.

I agree that , the carol which I heard by the kids performance , is the old version , or the version which is not wide spread and not in the wide use , which is probably changed , and definitely must be pertained to some individual cases.

I think that this notification could be useful , for all Christians of the twenty first century as the occasion to review and to re-examine the Christian Christmas carols which we perform on Christmas , in many other languages.
 
Athanasiy, like you I know better the version you mention. The traditions of koliady and shchedrivky are very deep in the Ukrainian people. They should be proud to do this, as well as sing the songs of their identity (the national songs) as well. It is part of Yordan and Rizdvo for our people.

But we should also explain to them with catechetical explanations of what they mean as well. In the case of “Novo Radist Stala” we need to explain that this does not mean all Jews, but only those few men who condemned Him to die. Can we select a better word or better version? Perhaps, but when generations have learned this it will be hard to change.
 
I understand , but among a lots of carols , it would be nice to learn some new ones .
Do you agree , that it would sound great , when the people on Christmas would hear some new and unheard before carols from the mouths of the children ?
The matter is that, there is a need of rooting out or eradication of racism tempers and moods , I mean there is a necessity to reprimand and rebuke the xenophobia and racialism in any form.
I agree that , in Ukraine some work has been doing , but I think not enough.
And there would be nothing wrong , if the school tutors would dedicate a few systematic hours , in order to teach the children the new carols , or if the old ones would be renovated in the more appropriate and less invidious manner.
 
Tak’ pravda, there are so many that can be learned - the old saying is when you have three Ukrainians, you have a new choir.

I have a book with something like 30 koliadky, and I can sing maybe 10 of them and have heard maybe only half of them. I would love to learn some new ones as well. And there are some fantastic choral arrangements as well from Lysenko, Stetsenko, Leontovich, etc.
 
The carols of Lysenko, Stetsenko, Leontovich.
Good to know.
Thanks.
 
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