Meat on Lenten Friday = mortal sin = hell?

[Protestantem]

Heb. 13:7 commands us to obey our church leaders because they have authority over our souls (Heb. 13:17) and can deliver our souls to Satan (1 Tim. 1:20).

and where do the leaders get the teaching that it is wrong to get meat from? like i have said many seem to come out of thin air

So you believe the book that the Catholic Church assembled but not the Church itself? If you don’t believe them, why accept the bible?

I disagree with many of there teachings, that are simply not inline with the bible, i do not know how the catholic church was when it started but today many of it’s teachings do not come from the bible.

In John 11:51-52 God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus’ death thus disproving your opinion that sinners can not teach infallibly.

I think you missed my point, the pope often claim’s that something is sinful when there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, and many Catholics look to him to determine what is sin and what is not, when he is human and makes mistakes.

Your opinion is incorrect. It has been addressed numerous times on these forums and proven incorrect. Jesus built the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head. Only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

care to prove me incorrect? you have no biblical evidence to suggest my interpretation is incorrect.

 

[Sir_Knight]

and where do the leaders get the teaching that it is wrong to get meat from? like i have said many seem to come out of thin air

Matt. 9:15; Mark 2:20; Luke 5:35

I disagree with many of there teachings, that are simply not inline with the bible, i do not know how the catholic church was when it started but today many of it’s teachings do not come from the bible.

Such as?

I think you missed my point, the pope often claim’s that something is sinful when there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, and many Catholics look to him to determine what is sin and what is not, when he is human and makes mistakes.

Jesus promised to send His Holy Spirit to guide His Church in all truths. If the Pope is causing the Church to make misakes, then Jesus failed to keep His promise and you might as well forget everything else that He taught because if one teaching CAN be wrong, then other teachings can also be wrong.

care to prove me incorrect? you have no biblical evidence to suggest my interpretation is incorrect.

Care to prove you incorrect? No. It’s been proven countless times on these forum. Use the search feature to find those threads and you’ll see that all of your objections ave already been addressed and disproved. I have no intention of going over the same stuff yet another time.

 

[Gerard_Nadal]

**From one Gerard to another, what are you trying to accomplish here? This usually turns into a deadly little parlor game: Let’s Debunk the Church. The object is simple; just try to find discrediting data against the Church. Pretty soon, your faith in the Magisterium is gone.

You play, you pay brother.**

 

[Protestantem]

Such as?

Salvation by works for example is completely unbiblical Ephesians 2:8-9 states:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 1

Purgatory, no bible verses that suggest purgatory exists

plus several more

 

[kage_ar]

Salvation by works for example is completely unbiblical Ephesians 2:8-9 states:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 1

Purgatory, no bible verses that suggest purgatory exists

plus several more

I can go prooftexting with the best of them

How about James chapter 2

"17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21* Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23* and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25* And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. "

 

[Sir_Knight]

Salvation by works for example is completely unbiblical Ephesians 2:8-9 states:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 1

While faith is certainly important, it is not enough for sufficient for salvation. This is confirmed by James 2:14-26 which states: 14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: 16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Jesus gives us a clearer example in Matthew 25:31-46: 31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: 36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. 41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Note that nowhere is faith even mentioned. We will NOT be judged by our faith but by our good works toward others.

Purgatory, no bible verses that suggest purgatory exists

In Matt. 12:32 Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

plus several more

I suggest you use the search feature because there is an excellent chance that anything that you can come up with has already been addressed and your objections have been disproved multiple times.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Protestantem, since we’ve been kind enough to address a few of your objections, I now have one for you. You position …

The only Person i obey with regards to what is a sin and what is not is God, through the bible.
. . .
I disagree with many of there teachings, that are simply not inline with the bible, i do not know how the catholic church was when it started but today many of it’s teachings do not come from the bible.

… seems to be that you will accept what is in the bible but not what the Catholic Church has to say but it was the Catholic Church that determined what the bible was to consist of. They decided that the Gospel of Matthew was to be included and the Gospel of Thomas was to be excluded and the Gospel of Mark to be included and so forth and so on.

If they would have included and excluded different books than what they did, the Christian faith would have been entirely different. Now, they either had the authority (as recorded in scripture that was given to the Aposltles) and the guidance of the Holy Spirit (as also recorded in scripture would be given to the Apostles) or they didn’t have that authority and guidance.

If you don’t accept that they had that authority and guidance, then why are you following the bible that they produced? They could have included the wrong books and excluded the correct books.

If you accept the bible as being the Word of God, then you have to accept the position that the Church DID have authority and guidance. And if they did, then I challenge you to show me via scripture (since that is the only thing that you presently accept) where that authority and guidance was removed from them?

Nowhere do I see Jesus saying that He will give authority and guidance to the Apostles and their successors (implied because the Bible was assembled centuries after the Apostles were dead) for a few hundred years and when their successors assemble a book of His teachings, that authority and guidance will be removed and they are to follow only that written book.

The ball in now in your court. We’ve returned a few of your serves, it’s only fair for you to now return a couple of ours.

 

[Protestantem]

what where did my post go i did post something long answering all your questions will re-write later, i only just woke up

 

[SteveGC]

what where did my post go i did post something long answering all your questions will re-write later, i only just woke up

If it is too long, the site will let you hit the submit button, but it will not post it. Rather, it will tell you that the post is too long and you must shorten it before it will submit it. If you close out the page too quickly, you’ll miss that message and lose the post. Frustrated me to no end when I first did that awhile back. My advice…keep 'em short as possible, but if they have to be long, highlight it all and copy it to your virtual clipboard (right click the highlighted text and click ‘copy’), so if you lose it somehow in the submittal function, you’ll atleast be able to repaste it back into the text box (right click an empty text box, click ‘paste’).

 

[Sir_Knight]

what where did my post go i did post something long answering all your questions will re-write later, i only just woke up

Always type it into notepad first. Then copy it from there and AFTER you see it appear on the board, then kill notepad.

I do, however, await your reply but will not be back until after Easter.

 

[Protestantem]

will re-do it soon, it was not all that long it was just saying that i believe those matthew and James verses mean that we are to do good work’s as a result of our faith

and with the one that someone used to prove purgatory: the next life refers to heaven in my opinion

I will try and remember what else i put in there soon

 

[Sir_Knight]

will re-do it soon, it was not all that long it was just saying that i believe those matthew and James verses mean that we are to do good work’s as a result of our faith

Whatever the reason … but good works are needed to go with faith – faith alone isn’t enough as those passages clearly illustrate.

and with the one that someone used to prove purgatory: the next life refers to heaven in my opinion

But there is no forgiveness in heaven. Those in heaven are already forgiven.

I will try and remember what else i put in there soon

Okay. I’m also interested in hearing your answer to the question that I asked earlier on how you can accept the book that the Catholic Church compiled but reject the Church that complied it.

 

[PeliganPelican]

Some on the forum are looking at this matter under the heading of Private Interpretation of Scripture,

How do we deal with the following passage of instruction and doctrine from the Apostle Paul

Colossians 2

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, **do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? **22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

It could be very easy to attempt to label this as for the Jewish converts only but this would be problematic as the text refers to “the World” the principles of do not eat etc etc are clearly connected to the “World System of Principles and Religion” which would extend further than just simply Judaic teachings.

Has the Apostles teaching been updated or changed. It seems strange to think of Paul endorsing any principle of “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!” that would move on from general practice to something that woudl impact a persons salvation.

Always in Love

 

[fix]

and where do the leaders get the teaching that it is wrong to get meat from? like i have said many seem to come out of thin air

I disagree with many of there teachings, that are simply not inline with the bible, i do not know how the catholic church was when it started but today many of it’s teachings do not come from the bible.

I think you missed my point, the pope often claim’s that something is sinful when there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, and many Catholics look to him to determine what is sin and what is not, when he is human and makes mistakes.

care to prove me incorrect? you have no biblical evidence to suggest my interpretation is incorrect.

How do you know the bible is the authority?