Mechanism of prayer requests?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mijoy2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Mijoy2

Guest
When we pray, and ask for something we perceive as needed or good, what exactly is the desired outcome of this prayer request?

I am not looking for the obvious answer here; that the prayer will be answered. That, of course, goes without saying. What I am wondering, or am curious about is; what exactly happens? Or maybe better put; what do we expect to have happen from the spiritual perspective?

Maybe a hypothetical would do a better job of getting my point across:

You have a non-believing neighbor, maybe an atheist. He is a nice guy and a good neighbor but a non-believer. You would love to see him converted. Therefore you pray for him. Maybe numerous times, possibly say the rosary for him. What, is the expected happening here? God knows all, therefore He already knows this man is an atheist. Is the act of your prayer an exercise in requesting further involvment of the Holy Spirit in this mans life? Of which the result would be the Holy Spirit will comply? Does God change the course of action of an event because of the prayer? Can your prayer actually result in an action by God?

Same question could go for many other prayer requests such as healing, releaving emotional of physical pain…etc.

When Nicholas Berg’s (one of the the men beheaded in Iraq), 72 hours was about to expire, I said Hail Marys throughout my 5 mile run. Praying for intercession, for a miracle to end this senselss horrific slaughter. Obviously nothing happened. I understand that God allows evils to happen, for the sake of the better good. But it sure got me wondering if the effort is worthwhile for prayer requests. Or should we stick to prayers of thanks and prayers of glorification.

Love to know some thoughts on this.

Thanks
 
Such questions are very difficult to answer. My take is as follows. God is outside of time. Therefore, from the creation of the world, he has seen all that will take place, and that includes your neighbors atheism and your prayer. If your neighbor converts, it will have been because he responded to God’s grace in his life. And God’s grace in his life was made available to him, at least in part, because of your prayer. My thoughts are straying into predestination here, so I’ll stop.

But petitionary prayer is a most biblical practice, and one of the greatest petitions is for someone’s conversion. So don’t stop. Somehow, our prayers are weaved into the causes of what comes to pass.

Very unsatisfactory answer, sorry.
 
40.png
John_Henry:
Such questions are very difficult to answer. My take is as follows. God is outside of time. Therefore, from the creation of the world, he has seen all that will take place, and that includes your neighbors atheism and your prayer. If your neighbor converts, it will have been because he responded to God’s grace in his life. And God’s grace in his life was made available to him, at least in part, because of your prayer. My thoughts are straying into predestination here, so I’ll stop.

But petitionary prayer is a most biblical practice, and one of the greatest petitions is for someone’s conversion. So don’t stop. Somehow, our prayers are weaved into the causes of what comes to pass.

Very unsatisfactory answer, sorry.
Click to expand...
Not at all, I appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut. I was torn between submitting this in the “Ask an Apologist” forum but was reluctant because of the one answer then it’s a done deal theme of that particular forum. Has it’s place certainly but I am hoping for a few thoughts on this. Thanks Again.
 
40.png
Mijoy2:
Maybe a hypothetical would do a better job of getting my point across:

You have a non-believing neighbor, maybe an atheist. He is a nice guy and a good neighbor but a non-believer. You would love to see him converted. Therefore you pray for him. Maybe numerous times, possibly say the rosary for him. What, is the expected happening here? God knows all, therefore He already knows this man is an atheist. Is the act of your prayer an exercise in requesting further involvment of the Holy Spirit in this mans life? Of which the result would be the Holy Spirit will comply? Does God change the course of action of an event because of the prayer? Can your prayer actually result in an action by God?
Click to expand...
Yes. Just as we are required to repent and to confess to receive the forgiveness of our sins even though God already knows that we have repented of them, God also requires our participation in in the ongoing spiritual war that is waged invisibly all around us. This participation consists of living our our faith to the best of our ability (by the Grace of God) and using the only spiritual weapon we have at our disposal; PRAYER.

We are called to pray “unceasingly” for ourselves and others, for our friends and our enemies, and ALWAYS for the good – that the will of God be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Prayer is a very real weapon in this war. It fortifies us and others and it helps to keep us holy. Why is this? Because God has chosen that we would be participants in His plan for salvation. At the same time that we are to look to our own salvation, we can not ignore the situation of others.

Your question calls to mind the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. What follows is my own musing and I am not claiming it must be accepted as part of the Catholic faith. While many believe that the rich man was in hell, I believe that he was in Purgatory. I’ve always believed and been taught that the souls in hell curse God and would never seek to save others from going to hell. However this is exactly what the rich man did. (Luke 16:19-31) Additionally, there is the interesting fact that Lazarus was specifically named. Jesus did not provide names for any of the other people in His parables; not even the “rich man” who was in the same parable as Lazarus. Why this exception? Could it be that He knew He would raise Lazarus from the dead when He returned to Jerusalem and that, when He did so, some would seek to attack Him? (John 11:17-48) I think so. To me, this not only illustrates the effectiveness of our own prayer in the lives of others, but that of the souls in Purgatory and, of course, Heaven.
 
My opinion on the subject I think your neighbor chooses his way of life and the path he or she is to take and if that person dosent want to be religious the hard part is you can’t force your way’s on him or her but you can try to help he or she to see things your way.But that dosnt mean stop praying for that person. To go on to the other part of your question its normal to feel sorrow for someonelse who’s going thru more hardship than you but i do beleve god isnt sleeping on your prayer maybee it was answered in a way you didnt expect it to be answered. I think things happen for a reason and if it seems harsh its just more of an honor to be given graces for being put to the test. Because Jesus did suffer more than anyone I know of and did not deserve it. Just don’t give up. Some protestants beleve after death Jesus askes you if you want to go to Heven or hell in some cases can be a deep sleep. As for Judgement I beleve judgement is based on you actions on earth. But remember you are getting the opinion of a very imperfect person who can be in more grave danger than you salvation wise. So i hope i was of some kind of help to you, if not sorry.
 
I have a question thats been bothering me for a while. Its about the Rosay. If the rosary is all about Jesus why is there more hail marys than our fathers. I know that in Catholic religion we are using Mary as our intercesor as to asking her to pray for us. But in some form or another if you deny it or not we are still praying to her. A friend of mine says that we shouldnt pray to anyone but GOD and use only Jesus as our intercsesor. In some form or another, is that in the bible? My friend also told me that nothing should destract us from concentrating on GOD(meaning our thaughts should be undivided) I always wondered where is praying the rosary in the bible because when Protestants ask me that I dont have the answer. If this is the 1 true Church Jesus talks about why do we have the Rosay if nobody has answers. I am troubled by this please respond, me and my girlfriend both are in need of this answer. Sorry if this troubles anyonelse who reads it, i’m scared for my actions of asking this. Now i pray like a protestant (by asking or talking). -Troubled John
 
another John:
But in some form or another if you deny it or not we are still praying to her. A friend of mine says that we shouldnt pray to anyone but GOD and use only Jesus as our intercsesor.
Click to expand...
We pray to Mary and the Saints because that is the only way we have to ask them to pray for us. They have passed from this life so we cannot walk up to them or call them on the phone. Prayer is the only option we have for the Saints.

Regarding Jesus being our only intercessor; does your friend never ask anyone else to pray on his behalf? If he does, then he is requesting someone other than Jesus to intercede on his behalf. Does he pray for others? Then is he not acting as an intercessor between that person and God; thus usurping the role he claims belongs only to Jesus? The practice of intercessory prayer is VERY biblical. Paul makes several exhortations for others to pray for him. When we make prayers of petition to saints, we are asking that they assist according to God’s will. They are like the Angels and the Bible is very clear that the Angels actually act on our behalf according to God’s will. When we offer prayers of praise to saints, what is it that we are praising? Are we not praising what God has done through them?

The distinction between the prayers of praise we offer to saints and to God has been gone over with a fine-tooth comb. We offer latria (worship) to God alone because He is the source of all Grace, of all goodness, and of all that we are. We offer dulia (honor) to saints because of what God has done through them and because they chose to be obedient to God. We hold the saints up as our examples; PROOF that we can lead a holy life if we would only accept God’s grace. They didn’t do it on their own and neither can we.

In regard to the number of Hail Mary’s compared to Our Father’s on the Rosary, this is really a non issue if you think about it. We don’t ask that Mary’s will be done, we praise (honor) her for her willingness to be obedient to the will of God and ask for her intercession on our behalf. The fourth commandment is to honor our mother and father. Mary is the mother of Jesus and He honors her fully and perfectly. How can it be wrong to follow the example of Jesus himself? The difference in the numbers exist because that is how Mary herself revealed the Rosary to St. Dominic in 1206.

Additionally, the rosary is a form of contemplative prayer and you are not supposed to focus on the words you are reciting but on the mysteries that are the whole point of the Rosary. What are these mysteries? They are the Gospel. We reflect on the life of Jesus from His incarnation in Mary’s womb to His ascention to His heavenly kingdom. To this we add Mary’s assumption and coronation which are part of the Catholic deposit of faith and show us the extent to which Jesus Himself loves and honors His mother. Your Protestant friend may not accept this, but hopefully this explanation will help you and your wife.

Do not be afraid to pray the Rosary, it is a gift from God and a weapon against Satan. It has been called the scourge of the devil and it is a very powerful prayer because, if you really meditate on its mysteries and what they mean in your own life, you will be a holier person.
 
There are many things that God will give us, but only if we ask.

He has chosen to give us free will and has chosen not to violate it.

Many of the gifts He would like to give us or situations he wants to help us in, we have to ask giving our permission for Him to do what He would like to.

Consider the gift of Loving God as much as possible. God would like all of us to be fully blest with this gift. However as love is an act of our free will, we have to choose it, and choose it often, and He will increase our Love for Him (slowly as we can only ask freely for what we mostly understand).

In addition, many times, we when pray for others, we do not see the fruits of our prayers which the one we prayed for may or may not be aware of. Our prayers do make a difference.

🙂
 
My thoughts on this subject are that prayers are never “wasted”. If the petition is one that is not answered as you wish you can be sure that the prayers are going to be graces somewhere. I once asked a holy priest how long should I pray for someone who has died. If they are in heaven am I wasting my prayers. He laughed and said prayers are never wasted but if I wanted to have more “control” over them to add a second petition;) . I think that any prayers that are not needed for our petitions bounce right back to us or our needs as God knows them better than we do.

blessings
 
40.png
theMutant:
We pray to Mary and the Saints because that is the only way we have to ask them to pray for us. They have passed from this life so we cannot walk up to them or call them on the phone. Prayer is the only option we have for the Saints.

Regarding Jesus being our only intercessor; does your friend never ask anyone else to pray on his behalf? If he does, then he is requesting someone other than Jesus to intercede on his behalf. Does he pray for others? Then is he not acting as an intercessor between that person and God; thus usurping the role he claims belongs only to Jesus? The practice of intercessory prayer is VERY biblical. Paul makes several exhortations for others to pray for him. When we make prayers of petition to saints, we are asking that they assist according to God’s will.
Click to expand...
Take it to mind im Catholic too, but as you said on the top → we are praying to Mary, the Angels, Saints - Why?<–(in a curious way) My friends point was, im guessing to only pray to “GOD” considering he is a jelous God “said in the bible”. If we were asking the Saints, Angels or Mary to pray for us why wouldnt we ask them in the same way or form we ask a friend instead of repetitive sentances without thaught of the meaning of the sentances <–(meaning the rosary). Their’s somethings we do in Catholism that seem like excuses instead of explanation. Don’t get me wrong in Revalations I do believe she is of some significance, but I don’t want to take any chances sideing away from what GOD wants. The question still stands were is it in the bible that says pray the Rosary. Sorry for anyone who reads this that poses these bothering questions aswell, please forgive me.I hope these questions are for the better of my beliefs not worst -another John
 
another John:
Take it to mind im Catholic too … The question still stands were is it in the bible that says pray the Rosary.
Click to expand...
I have no problem with you posing the questions. I am merely trying to explain why we engage in these practices but you don’t seem to think that they’re explanations. :confused:

If you are Catholic too, then you understand that not all of our beliefs are found in the Bible because not all of God’s revelation was placed in there. The Bible doesn’t make such a claim so for you to make such a requirement is clearly going against what God revealed in it. The Bible doesn’t say that God is a trinity (it is merely implied). The Bible doesn’t say that general revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle but that is our belief (as well as that of most Protestants). The Bible doesn’t list what writings belong in it but that doesn’t stop you from using it as a reference of God’s revelation to us.

God established the Church as an authority along with Scripture and, as Catholics, we must accept the authoritative teaching of both. You ask where the Bible says to pray the Rosary but the writings of the Bible were completed before the year 70 AD and the Rosary didn’t exist for nearly another 1200 years. Naturally, the Bible doesn’t mention the Rosary. So why do we pray the Rosary? Because the Church has approved it and encourages us to pray it. If I want to know what kind of prayer is pleasing to God, I will listen to the authoritative teaching of the Church on the subject because her interpretation of the teaching of Christ passed down to us through Scripture and Tradition is more authoritative than mine; and certainly more authoritative than that of a Protestant.

Will this argument convince a Protestant? Probably not because you would first have to get through to them the fact that the Bible does not teach that its authority is exclusive. This argument should suffice for any Catholic because, by definition, Catholics accept the authority of the Church along side of Scripture.
 
40.png
theMutant:
I have no problem with you posing the questions. I am merely trying to explain why we engage in these practices but you don’t seem to think that they’re explanations. :confused:

If you are Catholic too, then you understand that not all of our beliefs are found in the Bible because not all of God’s revelation was placed in there. The Bible doesn’t make such a claim so for you to make such a requirement is clearly going against what God revealed in it. The Bible doesn’t say that God is a trinity (it is merely implied). The Bible doesn’t say that general revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle but that is our belief (as well as that of most Protestants). The Bible doesn’t list what writings belong in it but that doesn’t stop you from using it as a reference of God’s revelation to us.

God established the Church as an authority along with Scripture and, as Catholics, we must accept the authoritative teaching of both. You ask where the Bible says to pray the Rosary but the writings of the Bible were completed before the year 70 AD and the Rosary didn’t exist for nearly another 1200 years. Naturally, the Bible doesn’t mention the Rosary. So why do we pray the Rosary? Because the Church has approved it and encourages us to pray it. If I want to know what kind of prayer is pleasing to God, I will listen to the authoritative teaching of the Church on the subject because her interpretation of the teaching of Christ passed down to us through Scripture and Tradition is more authoritative than mine; and certainly more authoritative than that of a Protestant.

Will this argument convince a Protestant? Probably not because you would first have to get through to them the fact that the Bible does not teach that its authority is exclusive. This argument should suffice for any Catholic because, by definition, Catholics accept the authority of the Church along side of Scripture.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply. But you have to also look at things in all aspects of skeptics, Protestants, Judaism, Islamic, and Catholic. You have to look beyond what you want as a Catholic. You have to seek the truth. Does anyone know if Catholic is the Church christ talks about or is it Judaism. You can’t blind yourself to see only what our Church tells us but look for which is “The Church”. If you have proof then can you please show me real documented and researchable proof? I would really like to know. If my choice of prayer isn’t the rosary, does that make me a non-Catholic who goes to a Catholic church? The forums people say Catholism is “The Church” but someone also said Jusaism is too. Whats your feedback on that? Does Judaism have the rosary also?
 
another John:
Thanks for your reply. But you have to also look at things in all aspects of skeptics, Protestants, Judaism, Islamic, and Catholic. You have to look beyond what you want as a Catholic. You have to seek the truth. Does anyone know if Catholic is the Church christ talks about or is it Judaism. You can’t blind yourself to see only what our Church tells us but look for which is “The Church”. If you have proof then can you please show me real documented and researchable proof? I would really like to know. If my choice of prayer isn’t the rosary, does that make me a non-Catholic who goes to a Catholic church? The forums people say Catholism is “The Church” but someone also said Jusaism is too. Whats your feedback on that? Does Judaism have the rosary also?
Click to expand...
John,

Of course Judaism doesn’t have the Rosary; it is a Catholic prayer. If you are wondering if you are REQUIRED to pray the Rosary as a Catholic, if you are a “bad” Catholic for choosing not to pray the Rosary, then the answer is no. There is no obligation to pray the Rosary as a Catholic. However, you do need to accept that it is a form of prayer that is acceptable to God because that is Church teaching. From this last post, it seems to me that you are suffering from a more general crisis of faith than one specific form of prayer. You are questioning if the Catholic Church is the Church Crist founded.

If you want the answer to this, I suggest that you start at the beginning. You seem to accept the Bible so you will need to start there. But the Bible didn’t exist in its present form for several centuries after Christ established His Church. Prior to that, it was simply separate letters being copied and passed throughout the Church which was already in existence and in full operation and which, in fact, made the authoritative determination of what writings are Scripture.

Next, you need to look at what immediately followed Christ establishing His Church. This is doable because the leaders of His Church wrote down explanations and defenses of His teachings; teachings which they defended and stood by even to their own deaths in horrible persecutions. These were made by those who were taught directly by the Apostles and by their immediate successors. I highly recommend “The Faith of the Early Fathers” edited by William Jergens (Jurgens?) which contains these teachings. In it you will find that the Early Church taught and practiced the Catholic Faith. That the Catholic Church today is the same Church, the only Church that teaches all that was taught by the Early Church and practices essentially the same forms of worship as that Church. This is because it is one and the same Church and is the only Church which has maintained the teachings of Christ handed down through the Apostles completely unchanged throughout its history.

(continued)
 
(continued from post #13)

Because I have already done this study, I tell you with complete conviction that I do NOT need to look beyond the teachings of the Catholic Church when I look for the truth. I recommend you do the same type of study because I am confident that in doing so, you will find the same thing that I, and so many others, have. The Catholic Faith, and only the Catholic Faith, is COMPLETELY true. All other forms of Christianity are only true to the extent that they conform to Catholic teaching. Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism. The Old Covenant was not done away with, but renewed and expanded to include the Gentiles. In doing this, Jesus came to the Jews and established, through them, a new religious order which soon became known as the Catholic Church. The Church was known by this name as early as 110 AD. I highly recommend the works of Rosalind Moss and a book called “Salvation is From the Jews” (I cannot remember the author’s name at this moment).

I hope that this will lead to you sources that will help to answer your questions. I know that they helped me to re-discover the Church I had abandoned in my adolescence and brought me to an unshakeable conviction and belief in that Church. The simple fact is this. If anyone can prove to me that the Catholic Church is not the one true Church, that any of its doctrines has ever been changed, I will not only cease to be a Catholic, I will cease to be a Christian. I have learned too much and I know that, if the Catholic Church is wrong, then all of Christianity is wrong.

Lastly, I need to point out that our own discussion has digressed quite of the topic of this thread. If you would like, I can open a new thread to continue this conversation or you can communicate with me privately through my member profile.
 
John, Why pray the rosary? Great question. Lotsa reasons, really. Since Jesus is our brother, then Mary is our Mother, and a family is closer with a lot of contact and communication. (Jesus is not our intercessor, as you said in one of your postings, He is God, the second person of the Trinity --we don’t get to God through Jesus, He IS God. You probably knew this, just typed it in a confusing way). Yes, we can go straight to Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and talk to them about stuff, or we can talk to Mary , the angels and the saints. Just like I can talk with my earthly Mother or Father, or any of my friends, brothers and sister. What the rosary does, is help me to focus on the mysteries. The repetition of the Hail Marys is to free up your focus for meditation on the life, passion/death and resurrection of Our Lord. The beads just help me/you to keep track of where you are. It is easier to get a job done if you have a framework, a structure in which to work. The order of the rosary keeps one focused on the particular mystery at hand and helps the mind to not wander all over the place. If you will discipline yourself to pray (not say, but pray) the rosary every day, you will find yourself with a more orderly prayer life and a deeper faith. Always a good thing.
Also, you seem to get a lot of questions from your protestant friends about Catholic practices. You have to remember that they only have Holy Scripture to rely on, not Holy Scripture and Tradition. There are lots of places on Catholic Answers sites on how come Tradition is scriptural, important and a treasure for the Church. You need to brush up on Church History and Traditions so that you can be confident that the church that Jesus founded is and always has been the Catholic Church and everyone else is an offshoot from the origional. In the meantime, start praying the rosary, get to know Mom better and you will feel Our Blessed Mother’s mantle surround you and make your heart at peace and your face smile.
 
mariadevotee said:
(Jesus is not our intercessor, as you said in one of your postings, He is God, the second person of the Trinity --we don’t get to God through Jesus, He IS God. You probably knew this, just typed it in a confusing way).
Click to expand...

I still need to read the rest of your post but I wanted to get this in right away. Jesus is most definitely our intercessor. Not only that, but he is, ultimately, our ONLY intercessor to the Father. The Bible says so and so does the Catholic Church. Jesus, however, shares his intercessory role with us in the same way that he shares his priestly role with us. This is why we can act as intercessors for one another. Our intercessions (including those of the saints) ultimately go to Christ and, through him to the Father.
 
The purpose of prayer is largely to prepare ourselves to consent to God’s will. If God knows what we’ll ask for prior to our ever putting the request in to words, what’s the real point? The point is to lift ourselves up to a point where we acknowledge, “O God, you are God, and I am not.” In recognizing that it’s all in God’s hands, we prepare ourselves to accept the outcome God has in mind. And almost every time, there’s a lesson to be learned from His answer…

Second, with intercession in general, the trump card here is to always ask a Protestant/Fundamentalist, “Would you ask somebody you consider to be very holy to pray for you in a time of need, like, say, your pastor or a very devout individual?”

They’ll always say, “Of course.”

Then you kindly explain that this is indeed exactly what we do when we call upon the Saints to pray for us; we know we have a few ace-in-the-holes in Heaven, so why not make use of them?
 
Ooops, so sorry, you are right about Jesus being our intercessor. I looked it up in the CCC 2634 and in Romans 8:34. It says that Jesus is our intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men especially sinners, also the Holy Spirit is our intercessor with the Father. I never really thought about it before, thanks for helping me learn and grow in knowledge and faith.
 
theMutant said:
(continued from post #13)

Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism. The Old Covenant was not done away with, but renewed and expanded to include the Gentiles. In doing this, Jesus came to the Jews and established, through them, a new religious order which soon became known as the Catholic Church. The Church was known by this name as early as 110 AD.
Click to expand...

So im guessing from what you said up here Judaism is what catholism was called befor. So does Judaism still exist till now and if so wouldnt that make it “the church”? What’s the difference between the holy koran and the bible, islamic beliefs and catholic beliefs? If your saying that my issue is not knowing which religion GOD wants me to be in, I take it you never thought of it but still did research on the churches earlier history. But whats the need to research on the churches earlier history if you had no dought about Catholism being “the church” also.
 
another John:
So im guessing from what you said up here Judaism is what catholism was called befor. So does Judaism still exist till now and if so wouldnt that make it “the church”? What’s the difference between the holy koran and the bible, islamic beliefs and catholic beliefs? If your saying that my issue is not knowing which religion GOD wants me to be in, I take it you never thought of it but still did research on the churches earlier history. But whats the need to research on the churches earlier history if you had no dought about Catholism being “the church” also.
Click to expand...
Judaism in its current form isn’t the Church because it has rejected the Messiah; however the Jews are still the chosen people of God and still have an important role to play in His plan (read “Salvation is from the Jews”). I was not always a Catholic and I did read the teachings of other religions in my quest for truth. Catholicism is the only religion whose teachings are completely consistent. Every other religion that I have looked into is inconsistent on some level – teachings that are inconsistent with other teachings, “truths” that have changed over time, teachings that are inconsistent with the world. However, I do not say that I no longer study other religions. On the contrary, I do continue to study them in order to gain a better understanding of their teachings because I believe that it is important for me to do this. I do admit, however that the majority of my study is of Catholicism because I still have much to learn.

I did not lack doubt about the truth of Catholicism prior to studying the writings of the Early Church. It was my study of the Church’s history that led me to the assurance that Catholicism is the true Church established by Christ; the only Christian Church that teaches all of what is taught in Scripture and was proclaimed by the Early Fathers going all the way back to the Apostles.

Once again, we are completely off the topic of this thread. If you don’t want to, or don’t want me to start a new thread on this topic, please contact me by private message through my member profile. I will not continue this topic in this thread any longer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top