Medical Ethics Debate-When Are We Dead?

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On the surface, death - when it occurs, who is dead and who isn’t - seems black and white. Obvious.
Generations ago, it probably was.

But science has blurred those black-and-white lines, and philosophers, ethicists and theologians are struggling to keep up.
As one medical ethicist put it this week, if society can’t agree about when life begins, why would anyone expect absolute consensus as to when it ends?

“Science has made it more complicated and science can’t answer the question of what is death by itself,” said Dr. Stuart Youngner.

“We’d all agree that somebody who has been cremated and is in ashes in a bowl is dead. But in an ICU, when somebody’s heart has stopped but could beat again, there is no answer to that question,” said Youngner, a psychiatrist and chair of the bioethics department at Cleveland’s Case Western Reserve University.

But recently, the ongoing shortage of organs has caused the medical establishment to wade gingerly into what is known as “donation after cardiac death.”

DCD can be used in cases where a patient is breathing on a ventilator, but does not meet the accepted standard for being declared brain-dead.

“They are not expected to reach brain death, but they are not expected to ever recover,” Prall said.
In those cases, with a family’s permission, a patient can be taken to the operating room and removed from the ventilator. Presumably breathing stops, followed closely by heart function.

Because the heart stops, organs must be removed immediately befo
re they atrophy.
Donation after cardiac death troubles some, including Youngner.
“What if the heart starts again? At two minutes, if you shocked it, you could start it again,” he said. “Are they dead at two minutes? At 15?”

But Prall points out that there are 80,000 people in the U.S. waiting for transplants, “many of whom die every day.”
DCD has recently been condoned, with caveats, by the American Medical Association and a committee of the Institute of Medicine. The institute recommends that physicians treating the dying patient be separate from those recovering the organs and that at least five minutes pass between when the heart stops and organs are taken.

denverpost.com/cda/article/print/0,1674,36%257E53%257E2453691,00.html
 
This is definitely a weird issue. I remember when my ma was dying in hospital from chronic alcoholism the doctors did not want to call a spade a spade and name what she was dying from as alcoholism. In fact, they kept her alive for two weeks on a respirator and when she did finally die they listed her death as “kidney failure” even though all of us in the family knew it was alcoholism that she died from. Even when she was on respirator she was basically dead. I think it is really difficult for doctors to make pronouncements if there is even the slightest shred of possibility that someone is alive, which is understandable on their part. Nonetheless, this hesitation can look different to the families of dying patients. No one wants to be the one who is carrying the difficult message of death…
 
It’s my understanding that removing a ventilator can indeed be licit under Catholic moral teaching, it just depends on the circumstance. If the person’s death is viewed as inevitable, with the ventilator merely prolonging the agony, then it can be removed. I’m not sure about removing the living organs from such a person, however. The case of brain death is much more straightforward :confused:
 
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NightRider:
I think it is really difficult for doctors to make pronouncements if there is even the slightest shred of possibility that someone is alive, which is understandable on their part. Nonetheless, this hesitation can look different to the families of dying patients. No one wants to be the one who is carrying the difficult message of death…
I believe the doctors are between a rock and a hard place; the frontiers of medicine are chaing so rapidly and the liability lawsuits so heavy I don’t think they know what to do half the time. But this thing with transplants is going to change the “boundaries” as we move along I think.

Among my personal acquaintances I have found more people who worry about being kept alive beyond what they want to endure but surprisingly enough a recent poll in our state is reported as coming out as 70% of the survivors vs. 30% of ptients voted for respirator removal so I thnk the next ethical battle may well be, not just when does life begin but when does death occur?
 
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Ghosty:
It’s my understanding that removing a ventilator can indeed be licit under Catholic moral teaching, it just depends on the circumstance. If the person’s death is viewed as inevitable, with the ventilator merely prolonging the agony, then it can be removed. I’m not sure about removing the living organs from such a person, however. The case of brain death is much more straightforward :confused:
Been through the scene with family and church a few years back and we were told no Catholic has to take extrordinary means to save themselves if they do not wish to. They must take ordinary means however.
 
The reason that I’m not listed as an organ donor right now is that I’m scared someone will harvest my organs before I’m fully dead. My husband has the same fear. While I’m for the concept of organ donation, the uncertainity in the medical community of when death fully occurs is what is keeping me from being a donor.
 
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Almeria:
The reason that I’m not listed as an organ donor right now is that I’m scared someone will harvest my organs before I’m fully dead. My husband has the same fear. While I’m for the concept of organ donation, the uncertainity in the medical community of when death fully occurs is what is keeping me from being a donor.
In light of recent reports, I may remove the organ donor designation from my license. 😦

I wish I could trust the medical profession (as a whole) to do the right thing.
 
Legally speaking, death occurs when the heart goes into asystole. Biologically, death occurs after the last observable sign of brain activity. Technically, asystole is reversable, brain death is not. There are numerous cases of a person who’s heart stops beating, but spontaneously recovers on the Medical Examiner’s table! However, if the brain is deprived of oxygen for a long enough period of time, it is no longer capable of functioning.
 
Technically, asystole is reversable, brain death is not. There are numerous cases of a person who’s heart stops beating, but spontaneously recovers on the Medical Examiner’s table! However, if the brain is deprived of oxygen for a long enough period of time, it is no longer capable of functioning.
Exactly, and this is the determination used in 99% of the cases I’ve ever seen, except in cases where the heart simply never starts back up again. Critical organs are usually only harvested from patients that are brain dead but still have beating hearts, because the organs remain oxygenated right up until the point of extraction so long as a ventilator is used to fill the lungs with O2. As someone who works with this stuff every day, I would say that it’s likely still safe to be an organ donor, but these things do raise concerns for the future.

Honestly, the cases in which critical organs can be harvested are very few and far between. Generally speaking, the question of whether or not someone is an organ donor only comes up after brain death has been determined, but the body is still being made to pump O2. This is because recovery teams and transplant teams are usually kept completely seperate (the recovery team has to call for the transplant team after declaring the patient dead, and believe me when I say that recovery teams take their jobs of treatment VERY seriously, as it can mean the end of their careers very quickly if they don’t). I’ve witnessed a number of deaths in the ER, and I’ve yet to see a case fit for critical organ removal. To put it bluntly, more than 9 times out of 10 it’s just tag and bag, with possible removal of non-critical organs that don’t require constant oxygen, such as the corneas.
 
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