Medieval Bible Christians

[Franciscanguy]

Publisher. Friend. Are there any stories in the OT or NT that you believe to be historically true? Any stories that you believe to be true where God devinely acted in human history?

Just trying to get your perspective…

I dont see why it has to be an either/or proposition. There is a difference between fact and Truth.

 

[Porknpie]

I dont see why it has to be an either/or proposition. There is a difference between fact and Truth.

I don’t disagree but Quakers have a diverse set of beliefs. I am asking a couple of simple questions that can help me understand Publisher.

Franciscan is one of my favorite red wines…

 

[Mystophilus]

I’ve read this one article by fundamentalist archaeologist Jonathan Gray. He has this one theory about Joseph of Arimathea:

I just showed this to my Beloved, who is a mediaevalist. Her first response (amidst the laughing) was “That’s fantastic! Is it a novel? It’s got to be a novel!” Then she wanted me to email it to her so that she can pass it on to her colleagues. You have just made a whole lot of people’s day.

BTW, the writer is not an archaeologist, but a fisherman whose ideas about geology are as fascinating as his ideas about history.

That story about Joseph of Arimathea comes from Malmesbury (see section 6), and thus has been around Britain for a millennium. The rest of it is probably pure Hank Kroll.

 

[Stilldreamn]

Luther had free will…he could have chosen otherwise…to remain in the Church…and have the patience for his intended reforms to begin to come to fruition.

Catherine of Sienna…a reformer priot to Luther…also had dealt with problems regarding the Papacy…but she did not cause a split in the Church…or see a need to cause a split. She was patient and trusted in the HS…to effect the reforms she was praying for.

So let me ask…did Luther chose wisely and Catherine did not?

I don’t think Luther actually chose, himself. As he said, “I can do no other.” I do wish he had had Catherine’s gift of patience! There are many Lutherans like myself who are patiently working within their churches to promote understanding and praying for unity (and what would that look like? RCC or EO? The Body of Christ as the right lung, left lung and maybe heart?) I believe that God is in control now as He was then and will surely bring order to the chaos of doctrines that exists now. How free is a person’s will, really? But that would be off topic

 

[Reuben_J]

I don’t think Luther actually chose, himself. As he said, “I can do no other.” I do wish he had had Catherine’s gift of patience! There are many Lutherans like myself who are patiently working within their churches to promote understanding and praying for unity (and what would that look like? RCC or EO? The Body of Christ as the right lung, left lung and maybe heart?) I believe that God is in control now as He was then and will surely bring order to the chaos of doctrines that exists now. How free is a person’s will, really? But that would be off topic

That’s the problem with Luther - he did not have the perseverance of a saint of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. And that should disqualify him. By no means am I disparaging him. This is purely from a Catholic’s perspective.

But that’s the past; we can only look forward. All gifts and services are from the same Spirit; it should hurt the Church tremendously that she should be splintered. We can only hope that the goodness of God will prevail and that it will come to pass for His people.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher. Friend. Are there any stories in the OT or NT that you believe to be historically true? Any stories that you believe to be true where God devinely acted in human history?

Just trying to get your perspective…

I’m saying that the stories in the Old and New Testaments have their basis in actual events.

Abraham is the father of many nations. Whether there was one person named Abraham or the figure in Genesis called “Abraham” is a compilation of characters that shaped Israel’s identity and brought them toghether as a people…I don’t know. The version of Geneis we have took most of it’s present form after the Return from Exile, around 600BCE…a millenia or more after the person of Abraham was to have lived.

The same with Moses. He well may have been a single character, or a historical lierary compilation of many men that the writers, editors, redactors of Exodus used to mold Israel’s religious history.

The stories of Joshua were passed down for generations before they took written form. We know the earth did not stop rotating on it’s axis so Joshua could win the day in battle. There were actual battles between the people of Caanan against the Israelite’s for dominance,…these are religious writings compiled by the victors in the wars that gave Israel it’s identity as “God’s chosen”.

As we get closer to our own times, David and Solomon took on less and less the “fantastic” stories surrounding their reign. Israel’s bitter civil wars between Judah and Israel occured…did they occur in exactly the same way as recoreded? I doubt it, but enough of historical fact was preserved.

Elijah taken to heaven in a firey chariot, pious reliougios myth to annunciate the profound effect he had in shaping Israel’s collective religous beliefs.

That Israel’s religious history time and time again had them falling back into worship of deities other than the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” was a concern time and time again which the prophets addressed, and after the Exile and Return from Captivity, the belief in the One Living God finally was entrenched in Israel’s history…after the “ethnic cleansing” instituted by Ezra and the Temple being rebuilt and the “Law discovered” in it’s ruins, most likely Deuteronomy was compiled by the priestly scribes at this time.

Jesus ministry as recorded in the gospels is not literal history, I’m sure many of the events occured, but the way the gospels were compiled and put together reveal the gospels were first used in the synagouges of those Jews who came to accept him as Messiah and so his story became part of the sacred history of Israel as the life of Jesus as God’s revealation using many of the OT stories as their basis, OR writing the stories in such a way as to “echo back” toward the stories read throughout the liturgical year.

The point, they are religious writings. Written to reveal a religous truth in a historical framework…written 40-70 years AFTER the fact, and not by any eyewitness of Jesus ministry but by Jewish believers of the Diaspora.

Yes, I believe God acts in human history, He is at work in our modern history just as much as He was in Israel’s history. The Bible is history interpreted, not history recorded.

 

[robwar]

I’m saying that the stories in the Old and New Testaments have their basis in actual events.

Abraham is the father of many nations. Whether there was one person named Abraham or the figure in Genesis called “Abraham” is a compilation of characters that shaped Israel’s identity and brought them toghether as a people…I don’t know. The version of Geneis we have took most of it’s present form after the Return from Exile, around 600BCE…a millenia or more after the person of Abraham was to have lived.

The same with Moses. He well may have been a single character, or a historical lierary compilation of many men that the writers, editors, redactors of Exodus used to mold Israel’s religious history.

The stories of Joshua were passed down for generations before they took written form. We know the earth did not stop rotating on it’s axis so Joshua could win the day in battle. There were actual battles between the people of Caanan against the Israelite’s for dominance,…these are religious writings compiled by the victors in the wars that gave Israel it’s identity as “God’s chosen”.

As we get closer to our own times, David and Solomon took on less and less the “fantastic” stories surrounding their reign. Israel’s bitter civil wars between Judah and Israel occured…did they occur in exactly the same way as recoreded? I doubt it, but enough of historical fact was preserved.

Elijah taken to heaven in a firey chariot, pious reliougios myth to annunciate the profound effect he had in shaping Israel’s collective religous beliefs.

That Israel’s religious history time and time again had them falling back into worship of deities other than the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” was a concern time and time again which the prophets addressed, and after the Exile and Return from Captivity, the belief in the One Living God finally was entrenched in Israel’s history…after the “ethnic cleansing” instituted by Ezra and the Temple being rebuilt and the “Law discovered” in it’s ruins, most likely Deuteronomy was compiled by the priestly scribes at this time.

Jesus ministry as recorded in the gospels is not literal history, I’m sure many of the events occured, but the way the gospels were compiled and put together reveal the gospels were first used in the synagouges of those Jews who came to accept him as Messiah and so his story became part of the sacred history of Israel as the life of Jesus as God’s revealation using many of the OT stories as their basis, OR writing the stories in such a way as to “echo back” toward the stories read throughout the liturgical year.

The point, they are religious writings. Written to reveal a religous truth in a historical framework…written 40-70 years AFTER the fact, and not by any eyewitness of Jesus ministry but by Jewish believers of the Diaspora.

Yes, I believe God acts in human history, He is at work in our modern history just as much as He was in Israel’s history. The Bible is history interpreted, not history recorded.

Maybe this should be another thread. While this is interesting, I think the topic was there any evidence as some fundamentalist claim that there were “bible christians” in hiding in the middle ages. There was none. First is their lack of understanding in that Bibles were hand written, very rare and expensive and there was a high illiteracy rate. Groups that tried to promote other views like Peter Waldo and Wycliff were heretical. They taught a number of heretical views that got them in trouble. The standard story told by those that hold erroneous view that there were Bible Christians in hiding and these 2 examples is that they got in trouble with the Church is that they wanted Christians to read the Bible. That is not the true or complete story. This is an example to twisting history to fit your current theory about history. Luther uses Waldo as an example. Wycliff was used by William Tyndal in the first English translation of the Bible

 

[Porknpie]

Maybe this should be another thread.

I concur. I apologize for getting off topic but I was interested in Publishers views. I’ll leave it to him whether to start a new thread but I have a good sense as to his beliefs.

(Publisher, thank you for sharing)