Mega-Church Pastor's and Usher's carry side arms?!

[CentralFLJames]

Do you think nobles entered unarmed in churches back then?

At least a dager.

Weapons are not an evil when used against evil.

You think the Swiss Guards are only for ceremonial use?

The difference of course is that there is no deception in the case of the Swiss Guards wearing their bright coloured uniforms and pikes plainly visible for all to see outside near the entrance of the Vatican and perhaps out of eyesight away from the altar in the sacristy in the event of an emergency. As well this is a unique exception to the regular Catholic mass assembly since it is tradition for this manner of presentation and a practise well established and widely known.

Back to the OP, the fundamental issue is the undisclosed concealment of deadly automatic weapons in secular ecclesial communities and the real potential of exposing families to unnecessary risk.

Don’t you think the presence of armed ushers should be advised with signs or notices? It seems to me that if there is a real threat rather than just an imagined one (i.e. assuming the pastor is not just wanting to “feel important” having armed guards around him) that the deterrence aspect of armed guards is lost by not making it widely known that the ushers are armed.

Clearly, these pastors are purposely electing on their own judgement and self-authority to not let it become general knowledge that ushers are armed. Clearly, they don’t want this information getting out for a reason. We can only surmise that it is because they don’t want to alarm individuals or make them the congregation feel uncomfortable. If there was a real threat don’t you think people should know? Given that the powerful deterrence aspect is lost without an announcement of concealed carrys it begs the question “how real is the threat”. In fact, a general announcement or signs posted in the lobby might be sufficient deterrent where the bluff effect becomes more effective and no deadly weapons need be carried. Perhaps tasers or pepper gas could be carried instead.

Do pastors in protestant churches have the self authority and autonomy to make these kinds of unilateral decisions on their own without getting the congregation to approve it? Apparently so.

James

 

[Pro_Domina]

Uh no. The real “protecting” Swiss Guards do not wear the uniform. They wear suits. And on the move they ride motorcycles in civies.

And they’ve got nice guns too.

Heck as soon as I can I’ll be carrying one. Too many gypsies here in Italy making a mess. And they are cowards. You’ll get shanked by 20 for no reason.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Uh no. The real “protecting” Swiss Guards do not wear the uniform. They wear suits. And on the move they ride motorcycles in civies.

And they’ve got nice guns too.

Heck as soon as I can I’ll be carrying one. Too many gypsies here in Italy making a mess. And they are cowards. You’ll get shanked by 20 for no reason.

I agree. But its well known in the case of the Vatican that there is undercover security all over due to real threats and the fact that there was a fairly recent assassination attempt with JPII.

The following is a list of murdered pontiffs and the way in
which they are thought to has been removed:

John VIII (872-882): Poisoned and clubbed to death
Adrian III, St. (884-885): Rumored poisoned
Stephen VI (896-897): Strangled
Leo V (903): Murdered
John X (914-928): Suffocated under a pillow
Stephen VII (VIII) (928-931): Possibly murdered
Stephen VIII (IX) (939-942): Mutilated and died from injuries
John XII (955-964): Suffered a stroke while with a mistress
or murdered by an outraged husband
Benedict VI (973-974): Strangled by a priest
John XIV (983-984): Starved to death or poisoned
Gregory V (996-999): Rumored poisoned, probably malaria
Sergius IV (1009-1012): Possibly murdered
Clement II (1046-1047): Rumored poisoned
Damasus II (1048): Rumored murdered
Boniface VIII (1294-1303): Died from abuse received while a
captive of the French in Anagni

Also given that Pope Benedict XVI has about 30 million fundamentalist Islamic fundamentals who have a fatwa out on him - I’d say the pope warrants some security.

James

 

[pa226p]

Hello, first I would like to suggest folks stop bashing “Protestants…?” My God given family are “Protestants” and I love them. I converted to Catholicism a couple of years ago (from Southern Baptist). God provided a path to him using the Baptist Church. I was searching for the truth and I found it in the Roman Catholic faith.

I did not find the Church thanks to a lot of Catholics who spend their time bashing everyone. I first had my eyes open while watching the new Pope being elected and listening to several priest on National TV, explain their faith in Jesus Christ. I also had the opportunity to read several post by Fr. Vincent Serpa on this site. Fr. V. Serpa seemed to me like a very carrying individual and very wise. Long story short I am now a Catholic.

As far as weapons in the Church are concerned; I always carry a concealed side arm off duty, “including Mass.” Romans 13:4 says: “for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.” (The new catholic answer bible)

There is always concern when an individual is armed; my guess is the ushers were off duty LEO…. Just to clarify… I am required by policy to be armed 24/7. I would hope someone would be able to stop a mad-man who decided to burst into a worship service and kill my family.

God bless.

 

[mercygate]

Hello, first I would like to suggest folks stop bashing “Protestants…?” My God given family are “Protestants” and I love them. I converted to Catholicism a couple of years ago (from Southern Baptist). God provided a path to him using the Baptist Church. I was searching for the truth and I found it in the Roman Catholic faith.

I did not find the Church thanks to a lot of Catholics who spend their time bashing everyone. I first had my eyes open while watching the new Pope being elected and listening to several priest on National TV, explain their faith in Jesus Christ. I also had the opportunity to read several post by Fr. Vincent Serpa on this site. Fr. V. Serpa seemed to me like a very carrying individual and very wise. Long story short I am now a Catholic.

As far as weapons in the Church are concerned; I always carry a concealed side arm off duty, “including Mass.” Romans 13:4 says: “for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.” (The new catholic answer bible)

There is always concern when an individual is armed; my guess is the ushers were off duty LEO…. Just to clarify… I am required by policy to be armed 24/7. I would hope someone would be able to stop a mad-man who decided to burst into a worship service and kill my family.

God bless.

Indeed – and thank you for your vigilance!

Had the OP’s friend been behaving like a good boy, the scuffle would not have occurred and the “scandal” of concealied firearms would never have been discovered.

As I said way up thread: a big operation like that likely has a police mandate to ensure security. As you note, these guys are likely off duty LEOs – responsible men who can be trusted to exercise good judgment and the least necessary force to secure the safety of the crowd.

We live in an irresponsible, impulsive, and violent culture; in Switzerland, where everybody has a firearm in his closet, citizens don’t cross a street when there is no traffic until the light turns green.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hello, first I would like to suggest folks stop bashing “Protestants…?” My God given family are “Protestants” and I love them. I converted to Catholicism a couple of years ago (from Southern Baptist). God provided a path to him using the Baptist Church. I was searching for the truth and I found it in the Roman Catholic faith.

I did not find the Church thanks to a lot of Catholics who spend their time bashing everyone. I first had my eyes open while watching the new Pope being elected and listening to several priest on National TV, explain their faith in Jesus Christ. I also had the opportunity to read several post by Fr. Vincent Serpa on this site. Fr. V. Serpa seemed to me like a very carrying individual and very wise. Long story short I am now a Catholic.

As far as weapons in the Church are concerned; I always carry a concealed side arm off duty, “including Mass.” Romans 13:4 says: “for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.” (The new catholic answer bible)

There is always concern when an individual is armed; my guess is the ushers were off duty LEO…. Just to clarify… I am required by policy to be armed 24/7. I would hope someone would be able to stop a mad-man who decided to burst into a worship service and kill my family.

God bless.

I don’t see any Protestant bashing going on here. This is a discussion about the appropriateness of hiring body guards in places of worship. No Catholic Churches do this to my knowledge (except in the Vatican where its a different situation) but I am sure that Catholics would be outraged to discover that ushers were carrying concealed weapons without us being advised to that fact.

As for “the state” requiring you to wear a firearm - they have no jurisdiction to legally require you to wear it in church. If I was a priest and I knew of a firearm in my Church I’d personally escort that person outside and tell them to stay out while armed. At a minimum a person carrying a concealed weapon should advise a pastor or priest and get his assent. You can leave your gun in the car before you enter church just like you can leave your gun at your bedstand before you take a shower or have intercourse with your wife.

Sorry, as a person who also is permitted to carry a concealed weapon (when I want to) I don’t buy this nonsense about being legally required to wear a firearm in church. You wear it because you choose to - not because you have to. It’s voluntary in this case. Are you going to arrest yourself or turn yourself in for breaking the law? This is policy it is not binding law. The intention is for self protection since there are criminals who may know you personally as law enforcement and who may want to become vengeful. The other purpose is to assist in preventing a crime in action. But just how many incidents of shooting in church have there been in the hundreds of years and billions of people-days of church services? Hint - its an order of magnitude less than being hit by lightening or space debris. It happens but its extremely rare - and when it happens its done so fast its not preventable anyway (and often the person commits suicide). There is more danger in harming somone by accident or escalating a non-violent confrontation to become deadly with weapons present and you know it.

Carry your mace in church if you are worried some old man is going to pull out his walking cane and start swinging it angrily at people. Better yet - just go tackle him.

James

 

[Pro_Domina]

I agree. But its well known in the case of the Vatican that there is undercover security all over due to real threats and the fact that there was a fairly recent assassination attempt with JPII.

The following is a list of murdered pontiffs and the way in
which they are thought to has been removed:

John VIII (872-882): Poisoned and clubbed to death
Adrian III, St. (884-885): Rumored poisoned
Stephen VI (896-897): Strangled
Leo V (903): Murdered
John X (914-928): Suffocated under a pillow
Stephen VII (VIII) (928-931): Possibly murdered
Stephen VIII (IX) (939-942): Mutilated and died from injuries
John XII (955-964): Suffered a stroke while with a mistress
or murdered by an outraged husband
Benedict VI (973-974): Strangled by a priest
John XIV (983-984): Starved to death or poisoned
Gregory V (996-999): Rumored poisoned, probably malaria
Sergius IV (1009-1012): Possibly murdered
Clement II (1046-1047): Rumored poisoned
Damasus II (1048): Rumored murdered
Boniface VIII (1294-1303): Died from abuse received while a
captive of the French in Anagni

Also given that Pope Benedict XVI has about 30 million fundamentalist Islamic fundamentals who have a fatwa out on him - I’d say the pope warrants some security.

James

They say St. Pius X was poisoned with the pages of his book when he licked them.

JP I died after drinking a cup of tea.

The stories that run is that the evil people saw he had a conversion grace that was really inconvenient to their plans.

 

[O.S.Luke]

As for “the state” requiring you to wear a firearm - they have no jurisdiction to legally require you to wear it in church. If I was a priest and I knew of a firearm in my Church I’d personally escort that person outside and tell them to stay out while armed. At a minimum a person carrying a concealed weapon should advise a pastor or priest and get his assent.
James

I didn’t say the state required anyone to carry a firearm. But some local municipalities require their police officers to carry a firearm off duty when in the bounds of the area they are commissioned.

When I have served churches where this was the case, most officers have always asked me if I am ok with this. And I am.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I didn’t say the state required anyone to carry a firearm. But some local municipalities require their police officers to carry a firearm off duty when in the bounds of the area they are commissioned.

When I have served churches where this was the case, most officers have always asked me if I am ok with this. And I am.

I am confused. What officers are you talking about? Fellow police officers?

The expression “the state” is generic. No civil government in the country, federal, state, county, city etc. has the authority to require anyone to carry a firearm in a church. This is a matter of separation of Church and state. “The State” has NO authority inside a Church except for cases of conducting emergency services or law enforcement where there is an ongoing felony being committed. In other words “the state” can’t send in police officers to sit inside in uniform and present themselves as overseer unless the church pastor requested them to for security reasons. Likewise, no mayor or city commissioner or little ol’ town chief of police can require any of his officers to wear a concealed weapon in church - he has no authority to do that. He can establish policy that you are required to wear it when off duty but clearly it is not against the law for you to use discretion and common sense and not wear the gun 24/7 (you have to shower, sleep, go to the toilet, etc.). And really, just who is going to know if you are not wearing your concealed weapon and who would ever report you anyway? I presume you would not turn yourself in.

Again, if I was a pastor of a church and somone came into my church wearing a concealed weapon and did not first ask my permission (which I would decline on principal unless there was an expectation of an incident) I would personally escort them off the property and be outraged by it AND call the police department and tell them they have no business telling people to were firearms in God’s church.

James

 

[jblake]

“The State” has NO authority inside a Church

The relevant ordinances don’t specify “church”. What they state is something along the lines of “All x are required to carry the side arms they are issued with whenever they are within the jurisdiction limits.”

“the state” can’t send in police officers to sit inside in uniform and present themselves as overseer

Some legal scholars have made the case that “the state” can send in police officers, and present themselves as the overseers of the church. Whilst I’m not convinced in the soundness of their legal reasoning, for the specific circumstances that they describe, the first amendment/freedom of religion probably does not apply. (I’ll also point out that those scenarios do not involve concealed weapons.)

just who is going to know if you are not wearing your concealed weapon and who would ever report you anyway?

Typically, these are covered at Administrative Hearing Boards. The usual scenario is that x was present during an incident, but failed to act because s/he did not have the gear that they are supposed to carry with them.

AND call the police department

Typically, these individuals are with a local police department.

tell them they have no business telling people to wear firearms in God’s church.

What you have here is the tension between acting to preserve the sanctity of a specific place, and acting for the public good of the community as a whole.

I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

xan

jonathon

 

[CentralFLJames]

The relevant ordinances don’t specify “church”. What they state is something along the lines of “All x are required to carry the side arms they are issued with whenever they are within the jurisdiction limits.”

The Church is private property. No private property owner is required to honor police departmental policies. Law enforcement or any wanna-be pseudo-authorities (private detectives, rent a cop security agents, self styled body guards etc.) have no right to enter private property unless invited in without a warrant or while pursuing a fleeing felon. Ergo, a home owner or any private owner can determine his own policies for firearms and rules for admission to his property that countermand office policies of the municipal police department or the personal desires of concealed weapons permit holders. Just becuase a person is licensed to carry a concealed weapon that does not grant him a licence to enter private property nor require anyone to honor that license on their own property.

Some legal scholars have made the case that “the state” can send in police officers, and present themselves as the overseers of the church. Whilst I’m not convinced in the soundness of their legal reasoning, for the specific circumstances that they describe, the first amendment/freedom of religion probably does not apply. (I’ll also point out that those scenarios do not involve concealed weapons.)

Some legal scholars are making a case for civil war then. No one would tolerate the intrusion of the state into Churches - especially with a conspicuous presence.

Typically, these are covered at Administrative Hearing Boards. The usual scenario is that x was present during an incident, but failed to act because s/he did not have the gear that they are supposed to carry with them.

I don’t know for sure but I am willing to bet that less than half a dozen people have ever been disciplined for this in any given year and it was probably a slap on the wrist.

What you have here is the tension between acting to preserve the sanctity of a specific place, and acting for the public good of the community as a whole.

I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

xan

jonathon

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. But the tension is between who defines the public good. In the case of the Church and home I say that is the place for private property owners (who do not break public law) and judges to determine. It is not the place of off duty cops who think by wearing a hidden gun that gives them the right to wear judicial robes or be disrespectful of the desires of the property owners. It used to be wearing a cowboy hat in a house or a church was considered disrespectful and discourteous. How is it that some people think they can now come in bearing deadly weapons?

I am not trying to force you into supporting this dumb policy but the whole idea of somone thinking they have a right to carry a gun into any place they want to simply because some administrative policy says so gets me spun up.

James

 

[DaveBj]

snip

Again, if I was a pastor of a church and somone came into my church wearing a concealed weapon and did not first ask my permission (which I would decline on principal unless there was an expectation of an incident) I would personally escort them off the property and be outraged by it AND call the police department and tell them they have no business telling people to were firearms in God’s church.

James

If you were the pastor of a church, the so-called church-state separation would preclude you from insisting that certain persons (i.e., off-duty police) violate the rules/laws/whatever of the jurisdiction in which they live and are employed. To put it bluntly, it would be none of your business what they have under their coats or in their pockets.

And if someone came in carrying a concealed weapon, how would you know? That’s the whole point of carrying it concealed.

It might interest you to know that at least two of the apostles were carrying concealed weapons at the first Eucharist–see Luke 22:38.

DaveBj

 

[CentralFLJames]

If you were the pastor of a church, the so-called church-state separation would preclude you from insisting that certain persons (i.e., off-duty police) violate the rules/laws/whatever of the jurisdiction in which they live and are employed. To put it bluntly, it would be none of your business what they have under their coats or in their pockets.

And if someone came in carrying a concealed weapon, how would you know? That’s the whole point of carrying it concealed.

It might interest you to know that at least two of the apostles were carrying concealed weapons at the first Eucharist–see Luke 22:38.

DaveBj

Three is no law that permits a person to carry a concealed weapon on private property against the wishes and policies of the owner or the authority of the house or the facility. Just because some bean counter administrator at the police station develops an office policy that requires that as a condition of employment that officers carry their firearms offduty does not give them special legal rights to carry them onto private property against the private property owner’s wishes. If I was a pastor saw indications of a concealed weapon, or saw it, or had a means to detect it (metal detector) I would call the police department to arrest their own officers. America is not a police state - yet.

Then going the other way, if a person invites security personnel to be present on private property with concealed weapons and does not tell guests or parishioners that there are deadly weapons present I say that is exposing people to risks and philosophical/moral revulsion that they morally have a right to know about and make an informed decision about if they want to enter such a facility.

James

 

[redrosetea]

This isn’t good…Pope Benedict when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger put a stop to the Sandinista priests from doing this…It is a profane thing to do in the House of God

 

[CentralFLJames]

This isn’t good…Pope Benedict when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger put a stop to the Sandinista priests from doing this…It is a profane thing to do in the House of God

I agree 100%

If there is a real security issue such that a pastor or minister has a real threat then it would be OK to have concealed weapons on licensed and bonded security personnel but there should be signs in the lobby or entrance advising people that there are armed security on premises. People have a right to know and they have a right to break communion with that church if they find the idea of bringing firearms into God’s House morally repulsive or an unwarranted risk to the safety of their families.

What I think is going on in some of these “mega” churches are a few wimpy “preachers” want to feel important and “big” and are hiring these guys to essentially have crowd control and “muscle” to handle the emotions we see in a lot of the fundamentalist faiths and to feel like they are in complete control of their congregation.

James

 

[O.S.Luke]

You have really got to lighten up, James.

There was a school shooting here about 11 years ago - life hasn’t been the same since. And local departments have upped their requirements for off-duty personnel. I support that. I have no idea if all of them follow the regs to a tee, but those who have approached me asked for my blessing and I was happy to give it.

I have no need to carry a concealed weapon myself. I don’t even own a handgun.

 

[DaveBj]

Three is no law that permits a person to carry a concealed weapon on private property against the wishes and policies of the owner or the authority of the house or the facility. Just because some bean counter administrator at the police station develops an office policy that requires that as a condition of employment that officers carry their firearms offduty does not give them special legal rights to carry them onto private property against the private property owner’s wishes. If I was a pastor saw indications of a concealed weapon, or saw it, or had a means to detect it (metal detector) I would call the police department to arrest their own officers. America is not a police state - yet.

Then going the other way, if a person invites security personnel to be present on private property with concealed weapons and does not tell guests or parishioners that there are deadly weapons present I say that is exposing people to risks and philosophical/moral revulsion that they morally have a right to know about and make an informed decision about if they want to enter such a facility.

James

You are misinformed. The laws differ from state to state. For example, in Texas, where my inlaws live, individual businesses can post themselves as being off limits to people carrying weapons. The same is not true of Alabama, where I live. There is no law authorizing business owners (or church pastors) to prohibit people carrying concealed weapons from entering their premises.

And if you called the police to arrest their own off-duty officers who were following their own rules and carrying concealed weapons, they would just laugh at you.

DaveBj