Men are staying away from church-- not in Eastern Orthodoxy

[5Loaves]

My husband put a copy of this article on my desk tonight, highlighting the paragraph about Orthodoxy and Frederica Mathewes-Green’s work about this: Faith Matters Why do men stay away? by Thomas G. Long in “Christian Century” magazine, Oct 20, 2011.

Still, the numbers don’t lie. Men are staying away from church. The reasons are undoubtedly complex, but perhaps a clue can be found in a Christian group that attracts men and women in roughly equal numbers: Eastern Orthodoxy. A cynic might say that men are attracted to Orthodoxy because it is conservative, with an all-male clergy, many of them sporting beards. The finding of religion journalist Frederica Mathewes-Green, however, is closer to the truth. She surveyed male adult converts and discovered that Orthodoxy’s main appeal is that it’s “challenging.” One convert said, “Orthodoxy is serious. It is difficult. It is demanding. It is about mercy, but it is also about overcoming myself.” Another said that he was sick of “bourgeois, feel-good American Christianity.”

I’d heard her full piece on Ancient Faith Radio some time ago.

This holds true I’m sure in our ECCs as well, in my parish it surely does.

 

[WoundedIcon]

That feel good stuff grates on my nerves personally. It even seeps into theology, where you get this Pelagian attitude of complacent cleanliness, and a a sort of denial of meticulous providence that manifests as a sort of dualism - a good example of that being the idea that God never wants anyone sick, nevermind the fact that the traditional position is that God can positively will physical, natural, and punitive evils in order to bring about a greater good. Sometimes God wants a sick person to stay sick. Heck, I’d say some individuals’ salvation depends on it. I know I’d be much worse off if I hadn’t these crosses of mine. That attitude really cripples potential mystics as well, because in the mystical assent you find A LOT of God-willed difficulty and trial. Really, it can be quite hellish. I once abandoned myself to divine providence and then wound up undergoing demonic obsession for a few months straight. Wanted to die, but can you imagine how much I was purified by that constant struggling resistance to evil? Of course, in this case there’s moral evil involved, but that only happens in the first place because God allows it. I was neck-deep in the mire of sinful attitudes, and this forced me to struggle to remain in grace. Once it ended I was so much better, I had essentially been forced to weight lift to a higher state of holiness.

Actually, I’ll show you something: according to the Bible, God can’t tempt anyone to sin but He can try them. Know how? Because he can will physical, natural, and punitive evils but not moral evil. But say something like this around a lot of the more feel-good types and they’ll knee jerk you out the room. But the only other solution is to say that God has no control over certain things and that they’re meaningless. Not a good solution IMO.

God wills physical evil, natural evil as well as punitive evil, per accidens, that is, as a means to a higher end of the physical order (for example, for the acquisition of a higher life), or of the moral order (for example, for punishment or for moral enlightenment). Ecclus. 11, 14: “Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches are from God.” …

Moral evil, that is, sin, which according to its nature is a revolt against God, is willed by God neither per se nor per accidens, that is, neither as and end nor as a means to an end."

 

[WoundedIcon]

Eh, I really need to deal with my rantiness.

 

[Seamus_L]

Frederica Mathewes-Green seems to have a peculiar fixation with this topic. I have however seen a few cradle Orthodox posters online, who have refuted her outlandish claims.

 

[AnthonyJ]

I was Orthodox and have visited many parishes throughout the US. In my experience, I have seen more women in Orthodox parishes than men. I believe the only instance I’ve seen a lot of men is at an Orthodox parish that is mainly composed of converts, which was my parish. However, the more ethnic parishes have many more women than men.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Frederica Mathewes-Green seems to have a peculiar fixation with this topic. I have however seen a few cradle Orthodox posters online, who have refuted her outlandish claims.

Opinions about Frederica Mathewes-Green are divided. Some don’t take her seriously; some find her to be ok.

 

[Ghosty]

I have to admit that my experience with this has been precisely the opposite. I don’t know about convert parishes (which is all this person seems interested in), but in the traditional ethnic parishes religion is definitely something “for the women”.

It was like that in Russia when I visited as well; when there were people in church, it was only women. In fact I don’t believe I saw a single man attending a Liturgy in Russia, but that was several years ago.

I wouldn’t take my experience as typical, but I’m just pointing out that it’s not something that’s as obvious as the article seems to be saying. On another note, does anyone know what percentage of Orthodox in the U.S. are converts? I have to admit that I hear about them and speak to them online, but I’ve only ever met a couple of them in person. The vast majority of Orthodox I’ve known have been born and raised in the Faith.

Peace and God bless!

 

[dvdjs]

Two issues:

1. the 60:40 ratio

This lopsided picture is not a new development. Women have dominated American churches since the nation’s founding; church records from the early colonial period document largely female congregations. Lamentations about the lack of men in the pews are similarly longstanding. In the 1830s, the Rev. Sebastian Streeter observed: “Christian churches are composed of a great disproportion of females.” As historian Ann Douglas notes in “The Feminization of American Culture,” the “19th-century minister moved in a world of women,” and concerns about whether a feminized church could retain its men were a recurrent theme in the spiritual literature of the era. By the 1920s, the 60-40 gender split that is today the norm was firmly entrenched (the 1950s and 1960s saw a brief return of men to churches, but by the 1970s it had again eroded). darwincatholic.blogspot.com/2005/10/gender-and-religion.html

So while there are so many who, like Podles, want to sell the idea that the at root of this skewed ratio are all the ills of modernism - women clergy, inclusive language, creepy music, a lack of “demandingness” etc. - the case is very weak.

1. What are the EO numbers, and how robust are they given the small size of parishes. FWIW in the OCA mission - almost exclusively convert - that I attended this morning the ratio was 57:43 - with but one more woman we would have reached 60:40. How robust is it across jurisdictions and countries? How do the Greeks and Antiochians compare in the US, or the Antiochians in the US versus Syria. Is there a good study of this ratio for the EOCs in the US and beyond? Without it, the stories told to explain the data are meaningless.

 

[chrisb]

I’ve attended an OCA Parish for years off and on and many Vespers are women only. I don’t know all the details but there are more women attending this particular OCA Parish.

 

[Aramis]

I was Orthodox and have visited many parishes throughout the US. In my experience, I have seen more women in Orthodox parishes than men. I believe the only instance I’ve seen a lot of men is at an Orthodox parish that is mainly composed of converts, which was my parish. However, the more ethnic parishes have many more women than men.

Village parishes in Alaska also tend to be male-heavy… but the state population is as well. And in some villages, it doesn’t matter what your faith is, you GO TO CHURCH OR ELSE!!!

The Or Else is usually shunning - no one talks to you if you don’t go, but if you go and know how to fit in, it suddenly matters a lot less that you’re not local.

But that’s a special case.

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

As others have stated, the reality is that in the ethnic and not idealized situation, the women go to court good luck from God, such as fertility. The men are baptized, married, and buried in the Church but generally it is seen as a thing for the women aside from Pascha and Christmas. If you’re a man and into church stuff then the expectation is that you will be a priest, but even that is mainly a family affair.

 

[Formosus]

My experience is that convert parishes generally have higher percentages of men, but I think that women are still likely to make up the higher number and do a lot of the parish work. I think tjat this observation though is not limited to orthodoxy or eastern catholicism, but it seems that more traditional western parishes (catholic, protestant, anglican) with lita of converts all show the same thing. I’ll leave it to the sociologists to tell me what that means.

 

[Hesychios]

From my limited experience, I find that males seem to be more attracted to the eastern rites than the latin rite. I can’t say that there is any data to back that up …

Still, I have no idea whether women or men are more commonly found in the divine liturgy in any typical parish or mission. I do know that among the Orthodox there seem to be a lot of opportunities for adult men to get more directly involved around the altar (reader, subdeacon, altar server), the choir etc. and the parishes are typically smaller (EC parishes as well) so there is no place to hide.

 

[mro]

Unfortunately the American Catholic is declining in numbers… Parishes are closing and mass attendance is dropping…

There is hope… And it lies within the immigrant community…

Catholic immigrants come here by the millions each year! We must throw open our churches to them documented, undocumented, and asylum seekers…

For those who seek to deport our brothers and sisters in Christ we shall hide them (our immigrant friends) the future of the American Church lies with Latinos and Eastern European immigrants…

We must welcome them with open arms

Or else they’ll go to the Orthodox Churches instead…

 

[Frank_J]

Hello,

First I would like to answer one of statements above say that the immigrants are going to be the ones to prop up the falling numbers. I’ve seen reports that show when the second and third generation comes they too leave the RC Church.

I have stated many time the reason for the falling numbers and you have not listen to me what so ever. I use to be RC and Convert to the Russian Orthodox Church “ROCOR” a very long time ago. I have been told to drop it or not answered. You RC don’t what to hear the truth you want to hear stories. The two web sites I just using as examples I have no control on what is be said in the first one so Please wait until the Novus Ordo Mass beings, what I want you see the different between day in night.

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Owner/My%20Documents/PLAY%20FOLDER/novus%20mass/New%20Religion%20New%20Mass%20-%20Traditional%20Catholic%20Latin%20Mass%20-%20YouTube.htm

Novus Ordo Mass

youtube.com/watch?v=enWiFcsBqIE

Latin Tridentine Mass.

If you don’t see any difference between the two, then there is not hope!! The RC Church there is old saying “The way you Worship is the way you will believe”.

Let me move on for the reason I want to chat about and that has to do what the talk is all about.

The number of men in my parish is about 50/50 with children add to the numbers of people attending. It may also depend on parish location, who has attend or work on Sunday, it may depend on parish to parish.

Third and this one is a question of AnthonyJ how did you convert from Eastern Orthodoxy to Roman Catholic. Transfer is impossable for you, you would be received in the Eastern Catholic Church and not as a RC. You would be received through CCEC???

Have a good day.