Mental sin and the Eucharist

[AlanFromWichita]

If I got mad at someone, say a store owner who won’t refund my money for something that’s clearly defective, and wished they went out of business, have I sinned?

What if I had a long argument with him, and later when thinking about it, got so angry at them that I envisioned – with a certain satisfaction – that physical harm and/or death would befall that store owner? Like if the store would blow up with him in it? Like I honestly hope that it happens? But take no action to make it happen, because I don’t know how. Have I mortally sinned? It’s grave matter, I suspect, and the intent and knowledge is there – but I didn’t actually carry it out.

What if I seriously want to commit adultery with a particular person, and sincerely would be willing to do it if I could get away with it? And I know she would go along with it, but I don’t because I’m afraid of getting caught. Sure I don’t want it to hurt my wife, but the whole point is I’m not going to do it because if I got caught then it would. So I never actually commit adultery except in my mind. I envision it, but with no physical component at all. Have I mortally sinned? It’s grave matter, I suspect, and the intent and knowledge is there – but I didn’t actually carry it out.

Or was there intent? At what point does “desire” become “intent”? Of course I knew all along I wasn’t going to actually do these things because of fear of getting caught – and of feeling bad about it later. But would Jesus say that I didn’t have intent?

I’m not saying I have any of these thoughts right now, but I have had similar ones in the past. I just got to thinking about them, though. Can I do these things in my mind and then take Holy Communion without confessing them?

Matt 5:21-22
“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment,o and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

Would I have spiritually killed the store owner? Just as if I’d done it physically?0

Matt 5:27-28
“You have heard that it was said,r ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Does “grave matter” imply that an act is physically carried out? Or that physical steps are taken … at least making a phone call? If not, then how in Jesus’s name are we innocent of these mortal sins even if we only do them mentally?

Alan

 

[InLight247]

I think you actually answered your own question with the Bible quotes you posted.
And we confess our sins in the Penitential Rite by saying, “… in my thoughts, in my words…”

 

[Tsukikid]

Confess everything to grow in grace.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think we are all in agreement so far, that spiritually these sins are serious.

Technically speaking, would the Church consider them “mortal” and therefore remove us from a state of grace? And be unable to take Communion?

Frankly, I’m guessing there are quite a number of Catholics with these sorts of angry or lustful episodes, who don’t think twice about going to Communion. :getholy:

As a related issue, is being in favor with God exactly equivalent to being in a “state of grace” by the Church’s definition? It seems to me that it cannot possibly match up exactly, but it depends on how cleverly the Church has designed “state of grace.”

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think we are all in agreement so far, that spiritually these sins are serious.

Technically speaking, would the Church consider them “mortal” and therefore remove us from a state of grace? And be unable to take Communion?

Frankly, I’m guessing there are quite a number of Catholics with these sorts of angry or lustful episodes, who don’t think twice about going to Communion. :getholy:

As a related issue, is being in favor with God exactly equivalent to being in a “state of grace” by the Church’s definition? It seems to me that it cannot possibly match up exactly, but it depends on how cleverly the Church has designed “state of grace.”

On second thought, this is an apologetics question, more than a spirituality question.

Maybe I’m not that interested in the answer anyway. Maybe I just needed to ask the question…

 

[aemcpa]

As a related issue, is being in favor with God exactly equivalent to being in a “state of grace” by the Church’s definition? It seems to me that it cannot possibly match up exactly, but it depends on how cleverly the Church has designed “state of grace.”

How would you define “being in favor with God”? Being in the state of grace is simply not being in a state of mortal sin; it’s a binary system. Would being attached to venial sin, or having actual unremitted venial sin put you out of God’s favor, or is there some sort of sliding scale or degrees of favor on which all those in the state of grace reside somewhere? I don’t know.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

How would you define “being in favor with God”? Being in the state of grace is simply not being in a state of mortal sin; it’s a binary system. Would being attached to venial sin, or having actual unremitted venial sin put you out of God’s favor, or is there some sort of sliding scale or degrees of favor on which all those in the state of grace reside somewhere? I don’t know.

Yes, I think we share the same question.

I think that the binary (hence dualistic) experience of being in the state of grace or not, cannot possibly be all the more complex God thinks about the situation. For us it is simple, even simplistic. And it seems that venial sins are just kind of like drops of water on the windshield; every week the wiper comes across so really we don’t even consider them an issue.

But then the Church claims authority to hold bound and loose, right? So did God promise to adopt whatever theological teachings the Church has? It seems interesting that an omniscient being would limit His options to what the Church teaches only, but is that precisely what happens? I guess that’s another apologetics question.

Alan

 

[LilyM]

There’s no clearly and unequivocally defined point at which such thoughts become grave sins.

Were they uninvited and resisted or indulged in and dwelt upon?

Was the subject acting in a very provocative way or did they really do not much at all and the thinker basically worked their own selves up into their state of rage or lust with little external enticement to do so?

In general, if in doubt, confess, as such thoughts hinder our relationship with God regardless.

 

[aemcpa]

Yes, I think we share the same question.

I think that the binary (hence dualistic) experience of being in the state of grace or not, cannot possibly be all the more complex God thinks about the situation. For us it is simple, even simplistic. And it seems that venial sins are just kind of like drops of water on the windshield; every week the wiper comes across so really we don’t even consider them an issue.

But then the Church claims authority to hold bound and loose, right? So did God promise to adopt whatever theological teachings the Church has? It seems interesting that an omniscient being would limit His options to what the Church teaches only, but is that precisely what happens? I guess that’s another apologetics question.

Alan

Since we know by divine revelation that there is such a thing as mortal sin, it follows that there must be a line at which sin becomes mortal. I suppose for our limited minds, that is the primary concern, and it is the Church’s first task to ensure that her children are at least on the correct side of line. But the mystics speak of the way of perfection, the unitive way, etc., and they speak of it in such a way that you can’t even begin the journey along that way until mortal sin is abhorrent and inconceivable. So I would think that the answer is somewhere along the line that those who have entered onto that path find greater favor with God, and as you advance in perfection, you advance in favor.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

There’s no clearly and unequivocally defined point at which such thoughts become grave sins.

Were they uninvited and resisted or indulged in and dwelt upon?

Was the subject acting in a very provocative way or did they really do not much at all and the thinker basically worked their own selves up into their state of rage or lust with little external enticement to do so?

In general, if in doubt, confess, as such thoughts hinder our relationship with God regardless.

I agree. I don’t see a clear-cut boundary, which would be impossible because all of the variables can’t be mathematically converted into a single dimension of measure that a binary system requires – even if the cutoff on each individual issue were determined there are interactive effects among them that would impact all this.

I think the value to considering these things, is to envision learning more about the nuances of our own thoughts and actions. Jesus didn’t say “be in the state of grace,” but rather “be perfect.” So to be perfect you have to take many things into account and get them all healed at once.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Since we know by divine revelation that there is such a thing as mortal sin, it follows that there must be a line at which sin becomes mortal. I suppose for our limited minds, that is the primary concern, and it is the Church’s first task to ensure that her children are at least on the correct side of line. But the mystics speak of the way of perfection, the unitive way, etc., and they speak of it in such a way that you can’t even begin the journey along that way until mortal sin is abhorrent and inconceivable. So I would think that the answer is somewhere along the line that those who have entered onto that path find greater favor with God, and as you advance in perfection, you advance in favor.

I like your approach. The more mature you become, the higher standard you adopt for yourself.

Maybe you’ve seen this from St. Teresa of Avila:
It seems to me a sin is very deliberate when, for example, one says: “Lord, You see it, and I know You do not want it, and I understand this; but I want to follow my whim and appetite more than Your will.” It doesn’t seem to me possible that something like this can be called little, however light the fault; bit it’s serious, very serious.

 

[aemcpa]

I like your approach. The more mature you become, the higher standard you adopt for yourself.

Maybe you’ve seen this from St. Teresa of Avila:
It seems to me a sin is very deliberate when, for example, one says: “Lord, You see it, and I know You do not want it, and I understand this; but I want to follow my whim and appetite more than Your will.” It doesn’t seem to me possible that something like this can be called little, however light the fault; bit it’s serious, very serious.

Exactly. The saints rightly see sin where we can’t, and as they grow in holiness, their spiritual vision becomes ever sharper, sort of like this:

youtube.com/watch?v=0jGaio87u3A

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Exactly. The saints rightly see sin where we can’t, and as they grow in holiness, their spiritual vision becomes ever sharper, sort of like this:

youtube.com/watch?v=0jGaio87u3A

I LOVED the video! I settled into my most contemplative mindset possible and let it happen to me!

About 25 years ago I had a class assignment for a distributed computing class, to calculate a Mandelbrot fractal that would fill one screen. I used one computer to control three other computers on the school’s Novell network, and they helped to the calculations. So it took me four computer to fill one screen in about a minute. Technology has really changed!

Alan

 

[Bookcat]

Does “grave matter” imply that an act is physically carried out? Or that physical steps are taken …

Alan

No.

One can commit mortal sin without any external action.

It still though requires – grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent (complete consent).

(not some passing thought that one rejects as soon as one realizes what it is or something.)

(There is a big difference between say in involuntary thought that happens to one and —one which one knows to be gravely sinful --and which one deliberately endorses.)

(Temptation is one thing – deliberate consent is another…)

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism

1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#III

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#The%20Dignity%20of%20the%20Human%20Person

 

[Bookcat]

jimmyakin.com/2005/08/bad_thoughts.html