S
SATEX
Guest
How can a merciful God knowing who will go to hell will create that person to go to hell?
- Status
1
1ke
Guest
God does not create anyone to go to Hell. God creates each human soul to be united with him in the Beatific Vision. Our free will allows us to choose otherwise, and God loves us enough to allow us to choose to be separated from him.
I would suggest Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners, as it treats topics such as this very well.
P
Pug
Guest
Is hell a necessary part of this question, or is it about mercy vrs suffering? I guess I am wondering if your question could be one like, why does God create little baby Joe, even though God knows that baby Joe will end up with a horrible childhood disease, and will be in constant pain until he dies at age 1 year, without ever growing up? Or is your queston not about suffering vrs mercy in general, but about that hell is the end of the line. Those who happen to go there would not leave.
Some people seem to only take issue with hell on account of feeling that it should be temporary, maybe more like purgatory. These people seem to accept suffering, just not suffering as it would be in hell.
By the way, I cannnot promise to give you a satisfactory answer either way. I think hell objections are tough to answer!
Some people seem to only take issue with hell on account of feeling that it should be temporary, maybe more like purgatory. These people seem to accept suffering, just not suffering as it would be in hell.
By the way, I cannnot promise to give you a satisfactory answer either way. I think hell objections are tough to answer!
T
TheQuestioner
Guest
Is hell really forever. In the bible at the judgement it says that death and hades(hell) will give up all it’s dead to be resurected. Then they would be thrown into the lake of fire and burning sulfer. I guess the lake of fire and burning sulfer would be forever, but maybe hell is like a chance for those who did not go to purgatory or heaven to feel sorry for their sins and finally be forgiven when the come back to life. Of course I may be wrong.
P
Pug
Guest
Hades in the NAB(current version) and the NASB(updated version) is not typically translated as hell. I am more familiar with an equation of hell with gehenna (gehenna would the place where the worm doesn’t die and the fire is not quenched, so perhaps gehenna is the “second death” or the lake of fire that is meant in Rev). Hades seems to me to be perhaps a bit more connected with the word sheol, from the old testament. In the NAB hades is called the netherworld or just that, hades.
With regard to Catholic doctrine, there is the particular judgement and the general judgement, and your fate does not change in between them. Right when you die, there is a determination of final destination, heaven or hell. When Jesus comes again, there is the general judgement, but your final destination does not change. The unfortunate people going to hell do get resurrected (get a body) at this point, but they don’t get a second chance.
I am not qualified to answer the biblical usage of the words hades and sheol. As I recall, they (or at least sheol) seem to have a feel of the abode of the dead in many instances. Hades seems to be a person or a personification in part of the book of Revelation as it is seen riding on a horse. I believe hades is mentioned in the story of the guy, lazarus, with all the sores that dogs licked by the gates of the rich man. For your reference I have pasted a computer generated list of places that Hades shows up in the new testament:
Matt. 11:23
Matt. 16:18
Lk. 10:15
Lk. 16:23
Acts 2:27
Acts 2:31
Rev. 1:18
Rev. 6:8
Rev. 20:13
Rev. 20:14
C
chrisg93
Guest
“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”
Rom 9:21
St Paul was asked that same question and his answer above says it is God’s power to do whatever He wants to. It’s called Election and it is a mystery of God.
Rom 9:21
St Paul was asked that same question and his answer above says it is God’s power to do whatever He wants to. It’s called Election and it is a mystery of God.
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Actually there is one thing God cannot do. God cannot oppose the Word of God. God’s Word cannot be false. If God says something, He cannot later change His Word to the opposite.
The reason we need our Savour Jesus Christ is because God told Adam and Eve if they sin they will certianly die. Seeing that God cannot lie or change His Word, after Adam and Eve sinned, now they were certianly doomed to die. Through Christ’s death on the cross He dies in our place to fufill God’s Word which condemns us to death. Therefore God’s Word condemning us to death has not been changed but rather fulfilled in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ death on the cross.
NAB GENESIS 2:16
The Lord God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.”
Through God’s living Word our Lord Jesus Christ, He has told us whom He will not forgive and who will suffer eternal, everlasting damnation. At the web site Warning! Jesus Does Not Forgive All there are about forty quotes from Jesus when He tells us who he will not forgive. geocities.com/athens/forum/3325/unforgiven.html
NAB MATTHEW 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
**NAB2 MARK 3:29 **
But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin."
NAB JOHN 5:27
“The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.”
NAB REVELATION 22:12
“Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! **Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life **and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood.”
Modern Christianity has a habit of leaving out man’s need to repent or return to do the will of God with all your heart, part of Jesus and the Father’s mercy through Jesus. geocities.com/athens/forum/3325/stone10a.html
It is not worth anyones eternal life to make a bet that God will simply change His Word and not fufill eternal damnation to those whom His living Word Jesus swears will suffer eternal damnation. Jesus and the Father’s Word is an unchanging rock upon which we can put our hope, faith and trust in. Better to be a faithful servant repeating Christ’s warnings to your bretheren than to plant doubt about Christ’s warnings of eternal damnation in the hearts of bretheren.
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
The only thing in the universe worth allowing hatred, sin and damnation for is Love. You cannot love without the free from the will of God option to choose not to love. Love for God is our free from the will of God choices to obey the will of God. Those who produce the fruit of love for God are harvested into heaven through the blood of Jesus. God’s treasure of having an eternal kingdom of God filled with the love of His saints greatly out weighs the eternal damnation loss of the unrepentant who use freedom from the control of God’s will to hate God through sin.
INT 1 JOHN 5:3
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.INT JOHN 14:15
(Jesus is speaking.)
"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
Though the book names of those who inherit eternal life Sprititually exists from before creation, it is written from the aspect of the end of time when Jesus judges all mankind’s free willed actions on earth. Remember that physical time has no constraint on our Spiritual God. Our Spiritual God and Spiritual things like the book of those with eternal life, are omni-present to the whole of physical time. The Spirit lives outside of physical time which was created by the Spirit.
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
B
buffalo
Guest
If you turn your back on God you suffer separation. That separation and loss is hell. If you have a relationship with your spouse and you turn your back on her there is a chasm that is formed. You made the choice. The suffering anguish in hell (by not seeing the beatific vision is enormous) especially knowing you made the choice.
If you choose God and His Son then you will see Him in eternity.
If you choose not to enjoy something and find out what you missed you will be very sad.
If you choose God and His Son then you will see Him in eternity.
If you choose not to enjoy something and find out what you missed you will be very sad.
R
Racer_X
Guest
Two other points to keep in mind:
(1) God is perfectly just. Once you are with Him in the afterlife and have a more direct knowledge of Him, you will realize that if any suffered Hell, it was right that they did so. There will not be a cause for outrage or regret. It may be difficult to see that now, but such will indeed be the case if God truly is perfect.
(2) We do not know that anyone will actually go to Hell. We can hope that all will be saved. That is NOT to say that all will definitely be saved. The threat of hell is very real. Just like the risk that a person will be hit by car while crossing the street is very real. But it is not inevitable. It is certainly within the possible that nobody will be hit by car. Likewise with damnation. See Will All Be Saved? for elaboration.
(1) God is perfectly just. Once you are with Him in the afterlife and have a more direct knowledge of Him, you will realize that if any suffered Hell, it was right that they did so. There will not be a cause for outrage or regret. It may be difficult to see that now, but such will indeed be the case if God truly is perfect.
(2) We do not know that anyone will actually go to Hell. We can hope that all will be saved. That is NOT to say that all will definitely be saved. The threat of hell is very real. Just like the risk that a person will be hit by car while crossing the street is very real. But it is not inevitable. It is certainly within the possible that nobody will be hit by car. Likewise with damnation. See Will All Be Saved? for elaboration.
M
Maurelian
Guest
As 1ke said, God does not create anyone to go to hell. What we should realize is there is no time in eternity. God is incomprehensibly omnipotent and exists over all eternity. So time as we understand it does not exist for God. It’s my belief that no matter what anyone believes Heaven will be like, everyone of us is wrong because haven’t the ability to comprehend the beauty and eternal glory of God and His kingdom.
My point is, since God’s omniscience extends over all eternity, He knows everything all at once…so to speak. All at once, in terms of temporal time as we understand it. It’s not like He sits down with a calendar and plots out who’ll be born next month, of those who are saved, etc. For God, everything has already happened, and everything is happening. God’s being eternal does not mean he lives to be very, very, very old. It means he exists beyond the barriers of time. He doesn’t predict the future because for Him the future has already happened, but at the same time is happening now.
This all made sense to me when I started to write it, but now I feel like I’m rambling. Like I said, we aren’t able to comprehend His omnipotence. Apparently, at least some of us aren’t able to explain it very well, either!
P
Pug
Guest
Are you trying to say that the question of God creating someone whom he knows will go to hell somehow doesn't really make sense, because although God has foreknowledge, it isn't really FOREknowledge from His perspective, it is like simultaneous, NOWknowledge?
C
chrisg93
Guest
“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”
Rom 9:21
God does withhold his grace from some people knowing that they will go to hell (God hardened Pharo’s heart). It’s in the Bible. St. Paul says God does this, God has an absolute right to do this and who are we to question God. This is a mystery and a contradiction. The contradiction is that the Bible also says that God desires all men to be saved. So it is a mystery.
Rom 9:21
God does withhold his grace from some people knowing that they will go to hell (God hardened Pharo’s heart). It’s in the Bible. St. Paul says God does this, God has an absolute right to do this and who are we to question God. This is a mystery and a contradiction. The contradiction is that the Bible also says that God desires all men to be saved. So it is a mystery.
J
Jeffrey
Guest
Yea but…if you repent, you can be saved correct? Like the sheep that left the flock (Church), but came home. Yes?
Steven Merten:
Steven Merten:
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Absolutly! Repentance to fufill the will of God is what the message is all about. Returning to the will of God fills God’s heart with great joy. Bring it on home. It is those who decide to continue on in sin and yet have Jesus bring them into heaven on the last day that are only fooling themselves.
NAB MATTHEW 25:1 Parable of the Ten Virgins.
The reign of God can be likened to ten bridesmaids who took their torches and went out to welcome the groom. Five of them were foolish, while the other five were sensible. The foolish ones, in taking their torches, brought no oil along, but the sensible ones took flasks of oil as well as their torches. The groom delayed his coming, so they all began to nod, then to fall asleep. At midnight someone shouted, The groom is here! Come out and greet him! At the outcry all the virgins woke up and got their torches ready. The foolish ones said to the sensible, Give us some of your oil. Our torches are going out. But the sensible ones replied, No, there may not be enough for you and us. You had better go to the dealers and buy yourselves some. While they went off to buy it the groom arrived, and the ones who were ready went in to the wedding with him.** Then the door was barred. Later the other bridesmaids came back. “Master, master!” they cried. Open the door for us. But he answered, I tell you, I do not know you. **The moral is: “keep your eyes open, for you know not the day or the hour.”
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
P
Pug
Guest
chrisg93 said:
There are parts of Romans 9 about the Jews that I understand. When it talks about Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated, it and then it goes on to say that God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy, this I don’t really have any trouble understanding. Jacob got the better deal than Esau, and this was decided before they were born (verse 11). God just gave more to Jacob. Just because God has made a person does not mean that God is obliged to make them better than all other people. God does not have to give them an IQ of 160 to be fair. He can make some smarter and others not so smart. Same for any similar thing in place of being smart.
So, when it comes to the vessels that get honor and those that get dishonor, I could see this as saying something similar. Especially since I think the vessels of honor seem to be a group, the gentiles plus a few Jews, on account of:
23 This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,
24 namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.
So then the dishonor vessel is some other group. I presume the remaining Jews. But what happens to them? Later on in chapter 11, I think it is talking about salvation for them on account of:
11 Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous.
12 Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number.
and later:
25 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26 and thus all Israel will be saved,…
I guess I find more of God’s grand plans (the “mystery” in 11:25 and 16:25 about the gentiles) in what Paul is trying to say with the “vessels” than I find stuff about certain individual people going to hell.
M
Maurelian
Guest
Well, not that the question doesn’t make sense. It’s just my feeble attempt to answer how an infinitely loving God who was willing to sacrifice His Son would be able to pick and choose persons to burn in hell, rather that be saved by Christ.
From the Catechism:
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy.
I guess I interpret this to mean that time in Eternity is like a flash of light. God is omniscient and knows all - past, present, and future - instantaneously, since time as we know it does not exist for Him. While we have to wait for events to happen to know their outcome, for God these events have already happened, all at once, and therefore he knows their outcome. We cannot fully understand the mechanics of this because we cannot fully understand the relationship between the infinite and the finite, between time and eternity.
Like I said, it makes sense to me in my head, but when I try to explain it, the words that come out don’t seem quite adequate. I suppose I’m not enough of a philosopher to make it clear.
P
Pug
Guest
You are being clear about eternity! I have a very difficult time understanding the issues surrounding hell and mercy, so when I try to apply eternity to the mix, Kapboom!
God’s otherness from us may help explain why man’s concept of mercy fails when thinking about hell, while God’s concept of mercy does not fail. I can’t wait untill we can see things His way. I often wonder what it is like being God and having his responsibilites. We have duties to our fellow man; I’m not sure if God has “duties” like we do. If duty is different for him, maybe mercy is too.
Its hard to even imagine God coming across a situation where a duty would apply. I mean, we go along, and there it is, our duty coming along in the form of a sick friend, a child in need, etc. But as you say, nothing comes along for him. It was from forever for him.
God’s otherness from us may help explain why man’s concept of mercy fails when thinking about hell, while God’s concept of mercy does not fail. I can’t wait untill we can see things His way. I often wonder what it is like being God and having his responsibilites. We have duties to our fellow man; I’m not sure if God has “duties” like we do. If duty is different for him, maybe mercy is too.
Its hard to even imagine God coming across a situation where a duty would apply. I mean, we go along, and there it is, our duty coming along in the form of a sick friend, a child in need, etc. But as you say, nothing comes along for him. It was from forever for him.
M
Maurelian
Guest
Thanx, Pug!
So much seems to make sense inside my head, but when I try to put these swirling thoughts into coherent sentences, I realize how little I really know. Somehow this lack of understanding comforts me, in a weird way, knowing that He is up there with all the answers.
Sometimes I envision hell as God locking me in a room by myself, and not only not giving me any answers, but giving me, instead, a whole list of questions I’d never even thought of!!
So much seems to make sense inside my head, but when I try to put these swirling thoughts into coherent sentences, I realize how little I really know. Somehow this lack of understanding comforts me, in a weird way, knowing that He is up there with all the answers.
Sometimes I envision hell as God locking me in a room by myself, and not only not giving me any answers, but giving me, instead, a whole list of questions I’d never even thought of!!
D
dizzy_dave
Guest
I think we are kinda getting away from the original question. ***WHY ***would God create a person **KNOWING **that soul **WILL **go to Hell? It doesn’t matter if they repent, because then they would **NOT **go to Hell, I think the original question is more along the lines of what I already mentioned above. :yup:
- Status