Messianic Jews Vs Catholics

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It is, in fact, a claim with a great deal of support, though not from Klinghoffer’s book which does not address the history of Judaism and Christianity in the longer term.

The most interesting evidence is based on numbers. Historians estimate that Jews constituted up to 10% of Roman society including both those living in the province of Judea and those in the diaspora. After the bar kohba revolt Jews were negligable in number. Where did they all go? The wars and resulting famines would have killed some but not that many. The most logical conclusion is that they became Christians and no longer counted themselves as Jewish for purposes of the special tax levied on Jews by the Romans.

Other evidence comes indirectly from the history of Akiba and the bar khoba revolt. Why did Akiba annoint Bar Khoba as messiah? In order to cast Christians out of Judaism and staunch the movement. (Christians had their messiah, of course, and would not follow another which made them traitors.) Similarly there are many elements of Rabbinical Judaism, itself, that are best explained in terms of immunizing Judaism from Christian influence (e.g. the rejection of the LXX OT).
It had little to do with Christians. Where did you get that information regarding the bar khoba revolt?? You are of course entitled to your own opinon. But to state that the most logical conclusion to explain the absence of Jews (if that is the case), is that they converted to Christians? How on earth is that a logical conclusion?
 
After Paul reconceptualized Jesus and Christianity became the dominant Western religion, Jews continued to reject him. What really rankles Jews, says Klinghoffer, is the presumed incarnation of Jesus. The next hardest thing for a Jew to accept is the denial of God’s covenant with Israel and the commandments at Sinai. After all, the covenant (and the commandments) is the reason why God brought the Jews out of Egypt to meet Him.
I’m not sure I buy these arguments but it is the relevant issue here. We are, after all, discussiong the gray line between Judaism and Christianity (with Messianic Judaism falling in between somewhere).

Incarnation (i.e. the divinity of Jesus) is certainly the issue discussed today (e.g. the Israli court). But was it the historical reason?

It’s certanly understandable why replacement theology would rankle but that was not the issue in the earliest days when gentiles were neglibable participants.
In our post-modern age, the Holocaust has been a sticking-point. The case against Jesus is not as much against him as against the ethical heritage of those who follow him. byaaronhoward.com/index.php?action=details&record=41
The irony is that Hitler is among those 20th century figures who explicitly rejected Christian ethics in favor of more scientific views (e.g. Darwin and Nitchez).
 
It had little to do with Christians. Where did you get that information regarding the bar khoba revolt?? You are of course entitled to your own opinon. But to state that the most logical conclusion to explain the absence of Jews (if that is the case), is that they converted to Christians? How on earth is that a logical conclusion?
Here are two books I recommend on this topic: Jerusalem and Rome and Akiba’s Messiah.
 
I would recommend reading Salvation is From the Jews by Roy Schoeman. Roy - a former Harvard professor, spent most of his life as a committed practitioner of rabbinic Judaism. He studied under what he describes as “three of the most distinguished Rabbis in contemporary American Jewish life” - Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg, Rabbi Arthur Green and Rabbi Shlomo Carlbach. But he later entered the New Covenant in Y’shua through baptism.

He covers many interesting topics, including his own conversion story, the interplay between the Gentiles and the Jews, and he discusses some interesting facts - including those revolving around what he considers to be some unintentional testimony given by the Talmud on behalf of Christian belief.

He also wrote Honey from the Rock, which relates the stories of 16 Jews who “find the sweetness of Christ.”

Here is a link to his website:

salvationisfromthejews.com/

Here are the links to the books at Amazon, if anyone is interested:

amazon.com/Salvation-Jews-Role-Judaism-History/dp/089870975X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262111794&sr=8-1

amazon.com/Honey-Rock-Sixteen-Sweetness-Christ/dp/1586171151/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

The Association of Hebrew Catholics also has much to offer:

hebrewcatholic.org/
I own and have read both of those books.
I wonder if either of these or something different would be okay to share with my born again, formerly pentecostal, protestant, evangelical, messianic jewish (but not jewish) friends.

The PROTEST-ant part of them is alive and well. 😦
 
The irony is that Hitler is among those 20th century figures who explicitly rejected Christian ethics in favor of more scientific views (e.g. Darwin and Nitchez).
Nietzsche was first a poet, then he was considered a philosopher after having written Thus said Zarathustra (in German: Also sprach Zarathustra)
What makes you rate his views as “more scientific”?
 
Nietzsche was first a poet, then he was considered a philosopher after having written Thus said Zarathustra (in German: Also sprach Zarathustra) What makes you rate his views as “more scientific”?
Perhaps I should have put scientific in quotes. But there was a mileu of thought that combined Darwin and Nietzche (and others) into a cocktail of modernism that, on the surface at least, appeard to be more scientific than traditional Christian ethics. Nietzshe’s views were certainly part of that regardless of the fact that he was, in no sense, a formal scientist. Remeber that Marxism was also considered scientific in its heyday.
 
Perhaps I should have put scientific in quotes. But there was a mileu of thought that combined Darwin and Nietzche (and others) into a cocktail of modernism that, on the surface at least, appeard to be more scientific than traditional Christian ethics. Nietzshe’s views were certainly part of that regardless of the fact that he was, in no sense, a formal scientist. Remeber that Marxism was also considered scientific in its heyday.
You’re right, and there still is such a milieu nowadays.
 
The message and teachings of Jesus was very successful and spread throughout the Galilee and Sea of Galilee area.
Jesus had major followings where ever he went. Even in Jerusalem when he went into the Temple complex and taught among the pilgrims, the priests and officials left him alone because of his popularity and following.
When Jesus ascended into heaven, he left behind a large following of “Minim” Jews who accepted Christian beliefs. Christians did not threaten established Jewish authority (Temple authority) and relations among Jews were similar to today’s relations between Reform and Orthodox Jews. Jewish xenophobia and reticence under Roman authority, and the resultant destruction of the Jewish Temple and Temple leadership was the beginning of the separation between Jews, those who followed the call of Rabbi Akiva and accepted Shimon Ben-Kosiva as the “Bar-Kochva” the messiah and fought Rome’s hegemony and those that rejected the Bar-Kochva because Yeshua Ben-David “Jesus of Nazareth” is the messiah and were shunned. That was the separation, those who accepted the teaching of Jesus, the Apostles and early Church fathers and those that accepted the teachings of Rabbi Gamliel who salvaged the remnants of Pharisee (Parushim - the explaining of the Law in one of 4 ways) Judaism and accepted the authority of Rabbi Akiva and the Rishonim (the disciples of Akiva).
The Judaism of today is not the Judaism that was prevalent in the time of Jesus our Lord, rather it was a movement that believed in interpretation that was developed and nurtured among the remnants of the exiled communities in Bavel (Babylon), survived the wars with Rome and rejected the authority of priestly families that remained. The Jews in the Diaspora of the Roman world only had Rabbinic Judaism to cling to. That is the Judaism of today and it is not a big mystery at all. It is sad that the religious beliefs of those Jews that have a Jewish religious belief are that which survived. If the imperator Titus would not have granted Rabbi Gamliel’s request to open a Yeshiva (religious school) in Yavne, then the reality of today would even be sadder.
The message and teachings of Jesus has been very successful and has spread throughout the world.
 
In regards to the how did the Jewish followers come to worship on Sunday…I am reading a basic history of liturgy, ‘From Age to Age’, by Capuchin Fr. Joseph Foley. The earliest Jewish followers attended the synagogues with their fellow Jews…but in time, around 80 CE, a malediction was made against those who followed Christ.

The followers in turn broke away, formed their own synagogues, broke the 40 day fast and began worshipping on Sunday.

I read regarding Christians in other parts of the world began worshipping on Saturday night but then leave at dawn, to evolving to worshipping on Sunday…

About the majority of Jews not knowing about Jesus, there is a comment by those in the Sanhedrin that they did not want Jesus to appear as some kind of martyr and were very concerned how the population viewed Him in relation to them…so I tend to think Christ was better known approaching His entrance into Jerusalem, His last week of His life.
 
Is there even a decent amount of “Messianic Jews” in the world? There has to be like what, 1,000? And are they descended from Jews like 2000 years ago or more recent movements of Jews who decided that Jesus “really did sound like the Messiah” (or a combination of both)?
 
The message and teachings of Jesus was very successful and spread throughout the Galilee and Sea of Galilee area.
The evidence for this would be what, exactly?
Jesus had major followings where ever he went.
The evidence for this would be what, exactly? And for all the rest of the conjectures?
It is sad that the religious beliefs of those Jews that have a Jewish religious belief are that which survived. If the imperator Titus would not have granted Rabbi Gamliel’s request to open a Yeshiva (religious school) in Yavne, then the reality of today would even be sadder.
Or not, as the case may be. Now, if I were to suggest that the real tragedy was that the Romans didn’t breed enough lions, I wonder what the Christian response might be?
 
Is there even a decent amount of “Messianic Jews” in the world? There has to be like what, 1,000? And are they descended from Jews like 2000 years ago or more recent movements of Jews who decided that Jesus “really did sound like the Messiah” (or a combination of both)?
This is, I think, the most pertinent point. For whatever historical reasons, Judaism and Chrstianity went there seperate ways and for roughly 2000 years Jewish meant not a follower of Jesus in any way, shape, or form.

That said, I think it is entirely relevant and interesting why this is the case. The fact that Messianc Jews are rejected even by modern, secular Jews, is certainly very interesting.
 
Now, if I were to suggest that the real tragedy was that the Romans didn’t breed enough lions, I wonder what the Christian response might be?
Luckily for you, anti-Christianism is not a thought crime.
About the majority of Jews not knowing about Jesus, there is a comment by those in the Sanhedrin that they did not want Jesus to appear as some kind of martyr and were very concerned how the population viewed Him in relation to them…so I tend to think Christ was better known approaching His entrance into Jerusalem, His last week of His life.
It’s important to distinguish the varoius points in time (and to allow for the fact that we really don’t know with any reliability). But, generally speaking, we can look at Jesus’ popularity during his lifetime, between his resurrection and the destruction of Jerusalem, and thereafter.

The claim I put forward was that while many people may have heard of Jesus during his lifetime, it was only after the resurrection that any significant number of Jews became Christian in any sense, i.e., willing to risk their relationship with official Judaism.

It does seem most logical, as you noted above, that Jesus didn’t have a great following during his lifetime but that the Sanhedrin at least saw the potential for this if things continued on the same trajectory.

The most interesting question, however, is how many Jewish followers (i.e. Christians) there were between the destruction of Jerusalem and the bar Khoba rebellion and the final destruction of Israel. I think there is ample historical evidence that a majority of Jews became Christians by that time and that this was a large part of the reason that Akiba threw his support behind bar Khoba.
 
I attended a couple of Messianic Judaism services during the 90’s. They were very powerful. The praise and worship were great. The sermons were inspiring also. To hear the gospel from a messianic perspective added great depth to the meaning.

I have always been interested in the Jewishness of Jesus and the richness it adds to the NT.

Here is a link on wikipedia I wish there was more info but it’s a start.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
 
Here is a link on wikipedia I wish there was more info but it’s a start.
There are tons of books, and I’ve read several. Although there are all sorts of variations of theology, the most interesting claim that Messianic Jews put forward was that the apostles and early Jewish disciples kept the Torah and that the de-Judaism of Christianity occured later (some blaming the old scapegoat, Constantine).
 
A Maronite priest from Pennsylvania who goes to Lebanon on a regular basis, told us that the Palestinian Christians are part Arab and have some descendency from the original Jews who followed Christ.

I also read one time that it was the Shephardic Jews who followed Christ…now reading that it was the Jews in the countryside…assume they are the same…who followed Him, whereas those in the cities generally did not.
 
I also love reading the ingrafting of the Gentiles to the olive branch of Israel…actually there is reference to two olive trees and two lamps…both being a light to the world.

Yes, it is fascinating, and whether you are Catholic or Protestant, to be drawn to your Jewish roots founded on the Tree of Christ…I personally believe this is the direction of the Holy Spirit and it is most enriching.
 
To really understand the reasononing of Messianic Jews, I still recommend the Hebrew Catholic Association for all information.

hebrewcatholic.org

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
HI Javl!

The founder of Hebrew Catholic is now getting inundated with all sorts of inquiries because of the referral from CAF!

Kathleen
 
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