Messianic Jews

[flick427]

I recently met someone who I got along with rather well, but was a Messianic Jew (they started in the 1970’s I believe). I already know that they are Jews the believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but they believe that since Jesus died a Jew according to them, that we were never supposed to stop being Jews…and are still supposed to celebrate the Passover like Jesus did when He was younger…etc…etc… I believe the Catholic teachings, but this was honestly one of the hardest times I have ever had trying to state my beliefs, because he would back everything up pretty well, and had a Bible that was in English, but has the original language for each person’s name like calling God “Adoni”. Then I’d say something and he’d say, "well yeah, but in Hebrew it means…blah, blah…Anyway, before I ramble on too much, is there any apologetics info on all of this? As much as I think he is a great guy, it sure does get my head spinning trying to refute anything he said.

 

[nucatholic]

I think as Christians we are obligated to learn about our roots in Judaism. I would suggest the book “The Jewish roots of our Catholic Faith” Honestly I havn’t gotten the chance to read much of it because I didn’t have the money to buy it but it is supposed to be really well written and it explains how the Mass and liturgy are a completion of Jewish worship. The Eucharist takes the place of the Passover because Yeshua (Hebrew for Jesus) was the perfect Lamb that was sacrificed for our sins. It is not wrong for them to celebrate and do the Jewish rituals because the Messianic community is composed of former Jews. However, Christians are not obligated to do this because Peter at the Council of Jerusalem specified what is binding for non-Jewish Chrisitians. The first Church was mainly Jewish but also consisted of many Gentiles that converted. Eventually more converts were brought into the Church from Gentile communities. The Church in the first century was not an exclusively Jewish community but encompassed all the believers. As Christians the Messianic community lacks the full gospel that the true Church of Christ holds from the Apostles teaching and direction.

 

[Magnanimity]

Hey!

Yeah, I have a very good friend who calls himself a “Jewish believer in Jesus.”

I would recommend a few works. One is a recent book published by Ignatius press. It is by a Catholic convert from Judaism by the name of Roy H. Schoeman: Salvation is from the Jews. Also, check out Cardinal Ratzinger’s writings, esp. The Spirit of the Liturgy (chap. 2, I think), The Feast of Faith and *Many Religions, One Covenant: Israel, the Church, and the World. *I believe also that Professor Scott Hahn as well as Fr. Henri de Lubac (perhaps in his work Scripture in the Tradition) had some things to contribute to this discussion, which you might find useful.

If you read the Ratzinger books you will get a good feel for the whole idea of Catholicism being in many ways grounded in Judaism. However, in the Catholic faith, what we have is more than just a parallelism of Judaism or a mere “borrowing” of Jewish customs/practices. Rather, we have a modification and perfecting of much of what is found in Judaism. I think this would be a good apologetic route to take. Bring up things like the Passover and how Jesus is a greater fulfillment of this sacrificial celebration or even the Jewish sacrificial system, which became nil in 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed, and how this seems to point to the undoing of the Jewish faith. After all, who lifted the requirement to sacrifice animals to atone for sin for a Jew? Jesus in His perpetuated sacrifice, which we partake of in the Eucharist, is a much better way.

So much continuity exists between ancient Judaism and Catholicism that I think the more you come to know the commonalities, the more you will begin to see the modifications/perfections of the Catholic faith and be able to present these to your friend.

 

[Makerteacher]

I recently was able to attend Messianic Jewish services on a Saturday morning and was astonished at how much of our Catholic rituals I found in theirs. I realize they are separated brethren, but in some ways they are far LESS separated than many mainline Protestants I know of. I agree with the earlier poster, regarding several of our traditions being completed or fulfilled versions of their Jewish ones.

They had a tabernacle (HUGE!) centered on their altar, complete with a veil inside, and opening it up was a big deal. Inside was the Word of God (the Torah), and their scrolls include the entire Bible (well, almost, only 66 books) Once the Torah has been removed, they carried about the room and everyone touched it and then touched their lips to remind us all to always have the Word of God on our mouths. Then it was brought to the front and carefully placed on their ambo for the readings. I loved the thought of Jesus, in the Catholic tradition of the Blessed Sacrament, being carried about the room during Benediction. It was a clear connection to me.

They had an ambo, only it was gigantic, to hold the Scriptures and read from them. There were two readings and then a homily, which was quite long but very very good. They had a credence table on which the bread and wine were held during the services, and they even used the words “fruit of the vine and work of human hands…” when blessing it, though of course they did not consecrate it. And everyone ate the bread, though only the man who did the blessing drank the wine. Some of them wore yarmulkes and some wore prayer shawls and tallith. But not everyone. It was a fascinating experience and we felt both welcomed and comfortable, though of course we could not participate in their “communion” service, such as it was.

Our Messianic Jewish friends were also recently invited to a Catholic wedding, complete with a Mass, and said they were so comfortable there and recognized so much of what they are accustomed to in their own services.

 

[flick427]

Thank you all for your good information!

I realized that the Catholic Faith is similiar to them since it is a perfection of their faith…but of course getting that accross to someone of another faith is not so easy. I had actually thought about going to one of his services and observing to see how similiar it was. I think the best way to do things as far as Jews and Christians is just to show appreciation for each other and take it easy on the apologetics at first. It would have been kinda neat to have gone to the service with him and then just share the similarities. Arguing doesn’t work most of the time…you have to be a little cunning .

 

[dcmac]

Check out the Association of Hebrew Catholics website for a great MB and better resources for Catholics who have Jewish roots - Ms. Moss own brother founded this society. Great, great place to visit and learn a whole lot on Jewish Catholicism.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

I already know that they are Jews the believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but they believe that since Jesus died a Jew according to them, that we were never supposed to stop being Jews…and are still supposed to celebrate the Passover like Jesus did when He was younger…etc…etc…

Acts 15

 

[boppysbud]

Although I recognise the validity of REAL Jewish Christians pride in their heritage, I contend there is a lot more going on with "messianic Judaism than that.

The “Christian” television station where I live has been taken over by “MJs”, They are really fundamental Protestants who like to go in Jewish drag, but their faith and worship practices are completely Baptist or Pentecostal/Charismatic.

Real Jewish services are dignified, liturgical, and accapella. “Messianic Jewish” services are identical to Baptist, “non-denominational”. They have loud “praise bands”, non liturgical worship and prayers (prayers are made up on the spot by the leader “Rabbi”, while the congregation just sits and listens), and of course the highlight of the “services” are lllooonnnggggg sermons. They like to throw in a few Hebrew words and phrases, but have no real knowledge of Hebrew.

I feel that MJism is the latest fad to come out of fundy pop-theology, just like the “rapture”, it’s popularity will pass, just like all fads.