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CarlaOLS
Guest
You are right. I had no idea how old it was and I had no knowledge of the rule. Mea Culpa. Peace in JMJ
- Status
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Robbinson
Guest
I am a Jewish believer. If we step back, so was most of the early church (including all of the apostles) and in that sense they were all “messianic jews”. That said, the phrase “messianic jew” can mean different things.
In its broadest sense, it refers to any Jewish person who comes to believe in and accept Jesus (Yeshua) as Lord and Savior.
Its its most commonly used sense, it refers to a movement which is close to evangelical Christianity, with variant views (within the movement) on the role of the mosaic law ranging from “liberty” to follow it or not on one end of the spectrum, to its an issue of sanctification on the other side of the spectrum. I am not aware of any messianic Jews (at least any meaning part of the body) that believes the mosaic law has anything to do with justification (eg., like in Galatians and Hebrews).
To further complicate things, there is even a group of mostly gentile Christians who call themselves the “Hebrew Roots” movement who join and associate themselves as messianic Jews.
In the catholic church, there is a movement called Hebrew Catholics in which some Jewish believers who have joined the Catholic Church associate as a means of celebrating the Jewish roots of the faith (as an act of liberty, not sanctification).
Personally, I gladly accept the label of Catholic, Christian (as a Catholic) or Messianic Jew.
I am very friendly with, and collaborate with, friends at Jews for Jesus and Chosen People Ministries in NY (both evangelical christian groups focused on Jewish believers) and have many friends/acquaintances in the Hebrew Catholic movement.
Some Jewish (non-believers in Christ) take offense at all of these groups claiming their adherence to Jewish customs is a disguised ploy at evangelism. That is mistaken, though is often (but not always) a misunderstanding growing out of ignorance, rather than contempt or apologetics.
Hope that helps!
Blessings,
Brian Robbins
In its broadest sense, it refers to any Jewish person who comes to believe in and accept Jesus (Yeshua) as Lord and Savior.
Its its most commonly used sense, it refers to a movement which is close to evangelical Christianity, with variant views (within the movement) on the role of the mosaic law ranging from “liberty” to follow it or not on one end of the spectrum, to its an issue of sanctification on the other side of the spectrum. I am not aware of any messianic Jews (at least any meaning part of the body) that believes the mosaic law has anything to do with justification (eg., like in Galatians and Hebrews).
To further complicate things, there is even a group of mostly gentile Christians who call themselves the “Hebrew Roots” movement who join and associate themselves as messianic Jews.
In the catholic church, there is a movement called Hebrew Catholics in which some Jewish believers who have joined the Catholic Church associate as a means of celebrating the Jewish roots of the faith (as an act of liberty, not sanctification).
Personally, I gladly accept the label of Catholic, Christian (as a Catholic) or Messianic Jew.
I am very friendly with, and collaborate with, friends at Jews for Jesus and Chosen People Ministries in NY (both evangelical christian groups focused on Jewish believers) and have many friends/acquaintances in the Hebrew Catholic movement.
Some Jewish (non-believers in Christ) take offense at all of these groups claiming their adherence to Jewish customs is a disguised ploy at evangelism. That is mistaken, though is often (but not always) a misunderstanding growing out of ignorance, rather than contempt or apologetics.
Hope that helps!
Blessings,
Brian Robbins
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
Nice to see another Jewish Christian on here, a note of clarification though , most Hebrew roots have some Jewish heritage .
Nice job with the post , very informative.
R
Robbinson
Guest
Thanks and blessings,Nice to see another Jewish Christian on here, a note of clarification though , most Hebrew roots have some Jewish heritage .
Nice job with the post , very informative.
Brian
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CarlaOLS
Guest
Hi Brian - great clarification. I’m glad the thread was accidentally resurrected. I did so innocently (oblivious of the rule and dates of answers) because I was looking for answers about the topic. I’m a writer and a devout Catholic. My suspense thriller series is aimed at an ecumenical audience as well as non-believers but has the intention of helping all to look at their last end and hopefully the role Jesus and the Church should be playing in their lives. The suspense thriller even has a little paranormal horror there to sweeten the pot for readers and perhaps “catch more flies with honey.”
In that ecumenical sense, one of my main characters in the second book was a rabbi and his cousin a Messianic Jew. They of course had heated disagreement over the faith. Now in the third book, twenty years forward in the tale, I’d like to draw more attention to the changing tide of so many Jews, Hebrews (someone explain the diff.) coming to accept that Jesus is the Messiah and how they await his return with us Christians.
One blog article I read by a Catholic Jew was particularly powerful and explained that Messianic Jews believe that if you are born Jewish and await the Messiah, even his second coming, He will expect to find you a good practicing Jew. Therefore, it is unnecessary for a Jew to convert to Christianity, even after they accept Jesus. Hope I’ve re-capped that correctly. Here is the article:
catholicsforisrael.com/articles/jewish-christian-relations/226-catholic-messianic-judaism
I especially liked the section on the TORAH, where he talks of the Acts of the Apostles and how it was decided the Gentiles did not need to be “Judaized (i.e. circumcised and obliged to keep the Torah)” but how that also meant the opposite was true: Jews did not need to Christianized.
Let me know what u think.
In that ecumenical sense, one of my main characters in the second book was a rabbi and his cousin a Messianic Jew. They of course had heated disagreement over the faith. Now in the third book, twenty years forward in the tale, I’d like to draw more attention to the changing tide of so many Jews, Hebrews (someone explain the diff.) coming to accept that Jesus is the Messiah and how they await his return with us Christians.
One blog article I read by a Catholic Jew was particularly powerful and explained that Messianic Jews believe that if you are born Jewish and await the Messiah, even his second coming, He will expect to find you a good practicing Jew. Therefore, it is unnecessary for a Jew to convert to Christianity, even after they accept Jesus. Hope I’ve re-capped that correctly. Here is the article:
catholicsforisrael.com/articles/jewish-christian-relations/226-catholic-messianic-judaism
I especially liked the section on the TORAH, where he talks of the Acts of the Apostles and how it was decided the Gentiles did not need to be “Judaized (i.e. circumcised and obliged to keep the Torah)” but how that also meant the opposite was true: Jews did not need to Christianized.
Let me know what u think.
R
Robbinson
Guest
Carla
This is a big topic that might be difficult to address exclusively through posts - if you like, you may PM me and i’m happy to set up a call to talk it through. If you prefer a post reply, let me know and I’ll take a shot when i have time to frame it out (but there is a lot of material to cover for a post I think)
Blessings,
Brian
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AbideWithMe
Guest
I would be interested myself in hearing your thoughts, Brian. Your earlier post seemed to quite well informed. I know it’s not a short, easy topic, but if you have time I’d be curious to hear from you. I’m very limited on time myself to be involved in discussion; I do have a few questions that perhaps we could cover, though.
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Robbinson
Guest
No problem - I’m glad there is interest in the topic. I will take a shot at this tomorrow - stay tuned.I would be interested myself in hearing your thoughts, Brian. Your earlier post seemed to quite well informed. I know it’s not a short, easy topic, but if you have time I’d be curious to hear from you. I’m very limited on time myself to be involved in discussion; I do have a few questions that perhaps we could cover, though.
Blessings,
Brian
R
Robbinson
Guest
The major caveat to this reply is that, like the Protestant movement (which in the absence of a Magisterium) splintered into over 40,000 different denominations with different viewpoints (even on some core areas of doctrine), the messianic jewish movement is not cohesive in doctrine and there is a wide disparity of views on many, including some core, doctrines. With that caveat:
Generally, messianic jews (as implied by the term messianic jew) retain a close connection to their Jewish heritage and are often critical of the lost understanding by the Church (broadly defined) of the Hebrew Roots of our faith. Thus, there is a strong belief (running through most of the movement) that embraces the Hebrew Calendar and Jewish Festivals (the Lords’s festivals per the Hebrew scriptures) and resistance to what is often portrayed as the Hellenization of the Church.
That is what I believe was meant by the statement you repeated - that Jesus would expect a messianic jew to remain a good practicing Jew. Not all Jewish believers embrace that thought (I do not (if a good practicing jew implies following the mosaic law as a matter of justification or even sanctification)- although I have no problem with a jewish believer embracing, as a matter of liberty, their Jewish roots and celebrating jewish festivals in light of Jesus and the New Covenant.).
The general argument of messianic jews on both of these issues usually starts with the statement (which is true) that the early Church was made up initially exclusively of Jewish believers (Jesus, Mary, Joseph and all 12 apostles (and every author of every book of the new testament - except Luke (thus except Luke and Acts)) and they continued to celebrate the Jewish festivals. That is true, but only until the destruction of the second temple in 70AD. Thereafter, we quickly, from history, see believers (jewish and gentiles) moving to Sunday sabbath celebration, rather than Saturday (we actually see evidence of that even in the New Testament) but with express reference to this difference as early as 100 AD (when the apostles and/or the immediate successors were still alive). They also point to verses in scripture where Paul did circumcise at least one of his companions and took the Nazarite (a jewish) vow in response to claims that he was urging an abrogation of the laws and customs of moses. But, scripture later tells us in Paul’s own words that to a jew he was as a jew, and to the gentile, as a gentile, all for evangelization.
One of the dangers we are warned about in scripture is not to be new wine in old wine skins, less the skins burst. That is the danger, I believe, in putting the new covenant within the mosaic law. In fact, this danger was implicitly recognized in galations and hebrews where there was discussion of judaizing by jewish believers attempting to impose the mosaic law and it customs on gentile believers. I believe it was this concern that led the Church in the early years to actually prohibit jewish believers from celebrating jewish festivals. While it is hard to understand that prohibition, pehraps it was because of the infancy of the Church - today, the Church teaches “liberty” (not prohibition).
Rather, the mosaic law pointed to, and was fulfilled, in Jesus and the coming of the new covenant. It is the foundation of the new covenant - a foundation that is beautiful and and understanding of which enhances our faith, but we are free of the mosaic law (yet free to celebrate aspects of it). this is consistent with current Church teaching today permitting and encouraging former Episcopalians to celebrate with their own liturgical forms, and other local churches are given accommodation for their local cultures. But to suggest that Jewish believer “should” or “must” follow the mosaic law in any fashion (other than the inherent desire to follow the law of Christ which is written in our hearts) is mistaken, in my view.
I think that the larger story clear in the New Testament paints a picture of “one new man” (Jew and Gentile) without distinctions in Christ. It further teaches us in Hebrews and elsewhere that the law was a tudor until Christ came, and the Christ fulfilled the law (Matt 5:17). It also teaches us explicitly that all animals have been made clean. However, equally important, it also teaches us not to be a stumbling block to our brothers and sisters so that if we have a Jewish believer who follows the dietary laws, we should be sensitive to that.
To be fair however, it is true that in some sense the pendulum has swung to far. Just as in the early Church there was a debate as to whether Gentile believers had to become “jews” (subject to the laws of moses) to become Christians (this was rejected at the Jerusalem council) so today the Church has become so hostile to the jewish expression of our faith that in some churches there is actually a debate of whether jewish believers have to become “gentile” (abandon all attachment to Jewish laws and traditions) in order to become Christian (that should also be rejected).
When I tie those concepts (amplified by numerous other consistent verses in scripture) I see that God gave Israel the law as a means of showing them (and the world) what it means to be Holy, but also the understanding that we are sinful and unable to fulfill the law and be free of sin without God’s grace. This pointed to the coming of a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) which God expressly said would be different than the law of moses - it would be a law written in our hearts - the “natural law” or decalogue. That is why were are described as “freed” from the bondage of the law (mosaic law) and yet, gentiles are “grafted into” the promises made to Israel. Together, without distinction, believers have become new creations in Christ, with the law of God written in our hearts.
Generally, messianic jews (as implied by the term messianic jew) retain a close connection to their Jewish heritage and are often critical of the lost understanding by the Church (broadly defined) of the Hebrew Roots of our faith. Thus, there is a strong belief (running through most of the movement) that embraces the Hebrew Calendar and Jewish Festivals (the Lords’s festivals per the Hebrew scriptures) and resistance to what is often portrayed as the Hellenization of the Church.
That is what I believe was meant by the statement you repeated - that Jesus would expect a messianic jew to remain a good practicing Jew. Not all Jewish believers embrace that thought (I do not (if a good practicing jew implies following the mosaic law as a matter of justification or even sanctification)- although I have no problem with a jewish believer embracing, as a matter of liberty, their Jewish roots and celebrating jewish festivals in light of Jesus and the New Covenant.).
The general argument of messianic jews on both of these issues usually starts with the statement (which is true) that the early Church was made up initially exclusively of Jewish believers (Jesus, Mary, Joseph and all 12 apostles (and every author of every book of the new testament - except Luke (thus except Luke and Acts)) and they continued to celebrate the Jewish festivals. That is true, but only until the destruction of the second temple in 70AD. Thereafter, we quickly, from history, see believers (jewish and gentiles) moving to Sunday sabbath celebration, rather than Saturday (we actually see evidence of that even in the New Testament) but with express reference to this difference as early as 100 AD (when the apostles and/or the immediate successors were still alive). They also point to verses in scripture where Paul did circumcise at least one of his companions and took the Nazarite (a jewish) vow in response to claims that he was urging an abrogation of the laws and customs of moses. But, scripture later tells us in Paul’s own words that to a jew he was as a jew, and to the gentile, as a gentile, all for evangelization.
One of the dangers we are warned about in scripture is not to be new wine in old wine skins, less the skins burst. That is the danger, I believe, in putting the new covenant within the mosaic law. In fact, this danger was implicitly recognized in galations and hebrews where there was discussion of judaizing by jewish believers attempting to impose the mosaic law and it customs on gentile believers. I believe it was this concern that led the Church in the early years to actually prohibit jewish believers from celebrating jewish festivals. While it is hard to understand that prohibition, pehraps it was because of the infancy of the Church - today, the Church teaches “liberty” (not prohibition).
Rather, the mosaic law pointed to, and was fulfilled, in Jesus and the coming of the new covenant. It is the foundation of the new covenant - a foundation that is beautiful and and understanding of which enhances our faith, but we are free of the mosaic law (yet free to celebrate aspects of it). this is consistent with current Church teaching today permitting and encouraging former Episcopalians to celebrate with their own liturgical forms, and other local churches are given accommodation for their local cultures. But to suggest that Jewish believer “should” or “must” follow the mosaic law in any fashion (other than the inherent desire to follow the law of Christ which is written in our hearts) is mistaken, in my view.
I think that the larger story clear in the New Testament paints a picture of “one new man” (Jew and Gentile) without distinctions in Christ. It further teaches us in Hebrews and elsewhere that the law was a tudor until Christ came, and the Christ fulfilled the law (Matt 5:17). It also teaches us explicitly that all animals have been made clean. However, equally important, it also teaches us not to be a stumbling block to our brothers and sisters so that if we have a Jewish believer who follows the dietary laws, we should be sensitive to that.
To be fair however, it is true that in some sense the pendulum has swung to far. Just as in the early Church there was a debate as to whether Gentile believers had to become “jews” (subject to the laws of moses) to become Christians (this was rejected at the Jerusalem council) so today the Church has become so hostile to the jewish expression of our faith that in some churches there is actually a debate of whether jewish believers have to become “gentile” (abandon all attachment to Jewish laws and traditions) in order to become Christian (that should also be rejected).
When I tie those concepts (amplified by numerous other consistent verses in scripture) I see that God gave Israel the law as a means of showing them (and the world) what it means to be Holy, but also the understanding that we are sinful and unable to fulfill the law and be free of sin without God’s grace. This pointed to the coming of a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) which God expressly said would be different than the law of moses - it would be a law written in our hearts - the “natural law” or decalogue. That is why were are described as “freed” from the bondage of the law (mosaic law) and yet, gentiles are “grafted into” the promises made to Israel. Together, without distinction, believers have become new creations in Christ, with the law of God written in our hearts.
R
Robbinson
Guest
Continuing briefly (exceeded the word account above)
Yet (and importantly) God still has a plan for “unsaved Israel” While individual Jews have come to saving faith since the birth of the Church, God told us that he would generally cause Israel to have eyes but not see, and ears but not hear - but not forever - Paul tells us in Romans 11 that this would last only until the full allotment of gentiles comes in and then “all israel will be saved”. See the beauty and irony of God’s plan? Israel’s disobedience to Christ led to the sharing of the gospel with the Gentile nations, and in the end times, Israel will become jealous of the gentiles’s relationship with God and corporally come to faith in Jesus. In that way, we will fulfil the new testament parable that "those who are last [gentiles - last to get God’s revelation] will be first (first to recognize Christ and be saved) and and those who are first [jews - first to get God’s revelation] will be last (last to recognize Christ and be saved) - but it is “last” not never.
The other thing I would point out (perhaps for a different thread) is that while the mosaic law has been fulfilled in Christ, all of God’s prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that are as of yet unfulfilled will be “literally” fulfilled (just as we believe in the “literal” fulfillment of Christ’s prophecies (coming resurrection).
God promised to regather unbelieving Israel from the four corners of the earth to which he scattered them due to their rebellion to the promised land. First, physically, and only later spiritually - and THEN they would mourn for the one whom they have pierced, and call on the name of the Lord.
Think of the State of Israel - God has indeed returned his covenant family, in part, to the promised land - not yet spiritually however, But Jesus also said he would not return until the leadership of Israel says “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”. I think the Church (which has not taken a position on this) needs collective prayer about God’s unfulfilled promises to Israel which, in the words of the Catechism, are irrevocable. Just a parting somber thought as we enter times of great tribulation in the world.
Blessings,
Brian
Yet (and importantly) God still has a plan for “unsaved Israel” While individual Jews have come to saving faith since the birth of the Church, God told us that he would generally cause Israel to have eyes but not see, and ears but not hear - but not forever - Paul tells us in Romans 11 that this would last only until the full allotment of gentiles comes in and then “all israel will be saved”. See the beauty and irony of God’s plan? Israel’s disobedience to Christ led to the sharing of the gospel with the Gentile nations, and in the end times, Israel will become jealous of the gentiles’s relationship with God and corporally come to faith in Jesus. In that way, we will fulfil the new testament parable that "those who are last [gentiles - last to get God’s revelation] will be first (first to recognize Christ and be saved) and and those who are first [jews - first to get God’s revelation] will be last (last to recognize Christ and be saved) - but it is “last” not never.
The other thing I would point out (perhaps for a different thread) is that while the mosaic law has been fulfilled in Christ, all of God’s prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures that are as of yet unfulfilled will be “literally” fulfilled (just as we believe in the “literal” fulfillment of Christ’s prophecies (coming resurrection).
God promised to regather unbelieving Israel from the four corners of the earth to which he scattered them due to their rebellion to the promised land. First, physically, and only later spiritually - and THEN they would mourn for the one whom they have pierced, and call on the name of the Lord.
Think of the State of Israel - God has indeed returned his covenant family, in part, to the promised land - not yet spiritually however, But Jesus also said he would not return until the leadership of Israel says “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”. I think the Church (which has not taken a position on this) needs collective prayer about God’s unfulfilled promises to Israel which, in the words of the Catechism, are irrevocable. Just a parting somber thought as we enter times of great tribulation in the world.
Blessings,
Brian
C
CarlaOLS
Guest
Brian- Wow, I’m blown away with the time you took for such a thorough response. Thank you!
All that being said and I found myself agreeing with all you wrote as it made sense to me, I want now to ask two things:
What do you think of the group of Hebrew Catholics and Roy Schoeman hebrewcatholic.net/roy-schoeman/or others who have appeared on EWTN?
Secondly, How do you think such a person as Messianic Jew would practice his faith as both a Jew and a Christian? (I am probably not going to make my Messianic Jew Catholic because I have a few too many main characters in this final book who are practicing Catholics. I’m trying not to shut down readers who may suspect the book is nothing more than an attempt to convert them to Catholicism.)
Thanks ahead for your continuing thoughts.
All that being said and I found myself agreeing with all you wrote as it made sense to me, I want now to ask two things:
What do you think of the group of Hebrew Catholics and Roy Schoeman hebrewcatholic.net/roy-schoeman/or others who have appeared on EWTN?
Secondly, How do you think such a person as Messianic Jew would practice his faith as both a Jew and a Christian? (I am probably not going to make my Messianic Jew Catholic because I have a few too many main characters in this final book who are practicing Catholics. I’m trying not to shut down readers who may suspect the book is nothing more than an attempt to convert them to Catholicism.)
Thanks ahead for your continuing thoughts.
R
Robbinson
Guest
Carla, I know, and am friendly with, a number of folks in Hebrew Catholics as well as several Jewish believers who have appeared on EWTN’s Journey Home show (I did that as well back in 2011). I admire Roy and loved his book Salvation is from the Jews. Roy reached out to me in 2011 after I shared my testimony on EWTN and we corresponded ab bit via email, though I have not found my way up to Boston to meet him in person yet.
In terms of practicing faith as both a Jew and a Christian, it depends on one’s perspective. I am a Jewish believer and live my faith in the Catholic Church (though I was evangelical for a while) - so my liturgical life is consistent with that of any other (non-Jewish) Catholic, and yet I associate with Jewish believers and non-believers and choose (through liberty) to celebrate the major Jewish holidays through the lens of the New Covenant. I have messianic Jewish friends who worship in messianic congregations where the liturgy is entirely, or in large part, in Hebrew. That style of worship in the new covenant does not appeal to me on a spiritual level, but it is beautiful and I respect those who are drawn to it. In the Catholic Church, many members of Hebrew Catholics supplement their liturgical worship in the Church with small group sessions with other Jewish believers who share a love our the Jewish heritage and roots of our faith.
Also, I have strong personal relationship with Jewish non-believers and, perhaps because of my background and heritage, have a special place in my heart for discussing the gospel with them. I meet regularly with Orthodox and Hasidic observant Jews to discuss scripture, the mosaic law and the new covenant (with mutual respect and love)
Hope that helps.
Blessings,
Brian
C
CarlaOLS
Guest
Thanks so much Brian. That all gives me a better idea of how to present this character.
I wonder if I might PM you with information on the trilogy and perhaps consult over specific sections in the 3rd book when I have them complete.
I do not connect my work as an author with my CA forum identity, but if anyone would like to know the names of the two novels already published just PM me.
God bless us all.
Carla
I wonder if I might PM you with information on the trilogy and perhaps consult over specific sections in the 3rd book when I have them complete.
I do not connect my work as an author with my CA forum identity, but if anyone would like to know the names of the two novels already published just PM me.
God bless us all.
Carla
R
Robbinson
Guest
- Status