Michael Davies on Obedience

[CrypticWritings]

I just finished listening to a talk from the late (and great) Michael Davies on True and False Obedience available here:
keepthefaith.org/detail.aspx?ID=517
I greatly enjoyed his talk and appreciated the thought he put into it. There were many good points he mentioned and he included quotes from St. Thomas Aquinas, Dom Prosper Gueranger and many others.
The one thing I didn’t catch was an article he mentioned from an issue of the Homeletic and Pastoral review that I can’t find now. It was about the “Papist priests.” In it was written the situation of the Church in America (and the world) and how many priest had to work around their bishops in order to avoid harm to the flock etc.
I would like to find this article if anyone knows how to get it and which one he was speaking of.
I would recommend his talk because it gives a good idea of the problems that are faced by both orthodox priests who operate under their diocese and also priests in the SSPX. I have now a better understanding of the perspectives that both sides have and why the issues are so difficult to clear up.
I know the talk is from a few years ago, but it is still very applicable. He is very fair in calling to people’s attention that there are good orthodox men fighting the battle whether they offer the Tridentine Liturgy, are affiliated with SSPX, or offer the New Liturgy. He also remarks on why and how it is wrong for other groups (not mentioned here to reject the pope and the Church so blatently.
The problem is much bigger than I think most people understand and his talk affirms that is is Traditional Orthodox Catholicism vs. Modernism and other heresy.
There seems to be a lot of arguments I find between “conservative” Catholics one one side and Traditionlists or SSPX affiliated Catholics. I already knew it this way, but even more now, I would say the problem is truly much deeper and greater than any average layman can realize. Prayer, God, saintly men and women and good orthodox leaders in the magesterium are the only way to remedy the situation.
The enemy is not flesh and blood, and Satan has deceived men to fall into heresy (modernism etc.) on one side, and on the other side, he tried to cause divisions *among the orthodox Catholics *in order to “weaken” the fight against the heresy.
Hmmmm…something funny I was thinking as I finished writing…
Looks like there are three T’s involved: We already are fighting the fight of **Truth **and Tradition and must persevere in Christ…I hope we continue that as we get more Teamwork.

 

[holy_roamer]

When I read that, the first thing God placed in my heart was that all Christians have life in the Spirit.

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8: 1,2) KJV

Who is to say that contemporary Christians are not walking in the Spirit?

I believe that our new life in Christ has a new liberty, a new relationship, a new hope, a new asssurance, and a new security.

 

[CrypticWritings]

When I read that, the first thing God placed in my heart was that all Christians have life in the Spirit.

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8: 1,2) KJV

Who is to say that contemporary Christians are not walking in the Spirit?

I believe that our new life in Christ has a new liberty, a new relationship, a new hope, a new asssurance, and a new security.

To clarify, I am speaking of the heresy of Modernism, not “modern/comtemporary man” as we (Catholics) are current and Catholic if indeed we are alive and truly of the Catholic Faith.

 

[jj2011]

I think “The Plight of the Papist Priest” appeared in Homiletic and Pastoral Review in [December?] 1981.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

The problem is much bigger than I think most people understand and his talk affirms that is is Traditional Orthodox Catholicism vs. Modernism and other heresy.
There seems to be a lot of arguments I find between “conservative” Catholics one one side and Traditionlists or SSPX affiliated Catholics. I already knew it this way, but even more now, I would say the problem is truly much deeper and greater than any average layman can realize.

I say the problem is more political than one of substance.

Some Catholics see liberalism as somethign which is sensible, and sets men free. Others see it as part and parcel of a self-indulegent society that has no place for God.

However when you actually get a traditionalist and a trendy down together, you will see that there are very substantial areas of agreement. Both will accept that liberals are essentially in the right about race, for instance, and essentially in the wrong about divorce. There is a big area of controversy about women’s rights, admittedly, but even there opinion is much more nuanced than in the world outside.

The political problem is that most people think in term of hurrah words and boo words, and the Church isn’t sending a consistent message. When a group of blacks demand an apology for slavery, the average Catholic doesn’t know whether to boo or cheer.

 

[Genesis315]

It is my understanding that there is a hierarchy of obedience. First and foremost we must obey God. Then, in the first sphere, we must obey the Pope, as long as his command does not contradict the law of God. Then we must obey our bishop as long as he doesn’t contradict God or the Pope. Then we must obey our pastor as long as he doesn’t contradict the bishop, Pope, or God. Then we must obey the parochiam vicar/associate pastor as long he does not contradict the pastor, bishop, Pope, and God.

In the other sphere we are to obey the state as long as its command is not openly repugnant to the natural law or law of God. If the state has a hierarchy of authority the same obedience is given as above, with a superior authority trumping the lower.

It takes great humility, patience, and divine charity to obtain the holy virtue of obedience.

 

[CrypticWritings]

It is my understanding that there is a hierarchy of obedience. First and foremost we must obey God. Then, in the first sphere, we must obey the Pope, as long as his command does not contradict the law of God. Then we must obey our bishop as long as he doesn’t contradict God or the Pope. Then we must obey our pastor as long as he doesn’t contradict the bishop, Pope, or God. Then we must obey the parochiam vicar/associate pastor as long he does not contradict the pastor, bishop, Pope, and God.

In the other sphere we are to obey the state as long as its command is not openly repugnant to the natural law or law of God. If the state has a hierarchy of authority the same obedience is given as above, with a superior authority trumping the lower.

It takes great humility, patience, and divine charity to obtain the holy virtue of obedience.

Your understanding sounds well and good. You are speaking of Eternal Law, Divine Law, Natural Law, Civil Law etc.
Mr. Davies brought those up and I was happy to hear the he asked the audience to be extremely critical of his arguments. I gathered that he wanted nothing more than to help the faithful understand and reason for themselves and not just “go with the flow”. God gave us the gift of reason and a conscience which we must (with His assistance) form properly.
It is rare that a soul is able to have such a well formed conscience and intellect that they are able to stand up for what is right in such an “heroic” way as the great saints, and not everyone should go try and rush out to “set things straight”. It would be a wonderful thing indeed for more faithful to be critical (yet charitable) and constructive in the way that is fitting to their state of life…
It poor catechism, but also very deformed conscience/intellects…I should know, I’m one of them! It is not easy to overcome the brianwashing in society and the world, but with God all things are possible!