Military service and my faith

[Timothysis]

It is the duty of Christians to follow Christ.

Are we then to ignore all other legitimate authorities in our lives? Do children no longer need respect the authority of their parents? Are we no longer required to follow those duties placed on us by our authorities at work? Do we no longer have to obey civil law because our duty is to follow Christ?

What about the more important (for Catholics) Christian law?

You presume to espouse what the Christian law is in regards to military service and other areas of life. The fact is that you are wrong. The Church does not hold the opinions that you do .

 

[Vince1022]

Are we then to ignore all other legitimate authorities in our lives?

No, unless they contradict Christ.

Do children no longer need respect the authority of their parents?

No, unless they contradict Christ.

Are we no longer required to follow those duties placed on us by our authorities at work?

No, unless they contradict Christ.

Do we no longer have to obey civil law because our duty is to follow Christ?

No, unless they contradict Christ.

You presume to espouse what the Christian law is in regards to military service and other areas of life.

No I don’t. I am simply saying that following Christ is more important than following anyone (or anything) else. Is that wrong?

Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church teaches that following military law (or other “areas of life”) are more important than following Christ?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

hogwash. It is the place of the US government to determine what constitutes a just war in Iraq. In this regard, the US Government and the US Government ONLY have the right to determine and declare the war in Iraq just.

You need to brush up on your doctrine.

Therefore it was the Nazi Germany government and the Nazi Germany government only that had the right to determine and declare the war against Poland just, right? So if you were a Christian living in Nazi Germany, you would be obliged to follow Hitler? Now that is hogwash.

 

[promethius]

Therefore it was the Nazi Germany government and the Nazi Germany government only that had the right to determine and declare the war against Poland just, right? So if you were a Christian living in Nazi Germany, you would be obliged to follow Hitler? Now that is hogwash.

I wasn’t talking about the case of Nazi Germany, I was talking about the case of Iraq.

However, yes, considering that the government is recognized to have more intelligence on a situation than anyone else, we are required to aquiesce to our own government’s determination of what is a just war… at least until evidence comes to light that the goal is actually UNJUST (such as soldiers who found out about the death camps). The responsibility of a catholic, or any troop for that matter, is to ensure that they follow the applicable laws and moral concepts behind orders: among these not shooting non-combatants, accepting surrenders, treating the wounded, etc etc.

It was likewise the responsibility of the allied governments to determine that Hitler was acting unjustly and in an aggressive manner, and thus to determine that it was just to go to war against him.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I wasn’t talking about the case of Nazi Germany, I was talking about the case of Iraq.

However, yes, considering that the government is recognized to have more intelligence on a situation than anyone else, we are required to aquiesce to our own government’s determination of what is a just war… at least until evidence comes to light that the goal is actually UNJUST…

Which puts you in substantial agreement with Vince1022 with whom you so vigorously disagreed. If it comes to light to the individual soldier that the goal is actually unjust, then it is no longer the duty of that soldier to follow his government.

Now where you will most likely disagree is over the question of whether the war in Iraq is unjust. And that is a question over which people of good faith may disagree. Remember, the obvious injustice of Hitler’s Germany was not so obvious at the time Poland was invaded - certainly not to the average German soldier. There were no death camps that he could see. You have the benefit of knowing all the bad stuff as history. The German soldier I am speaking of had none of this. In fact a very convincing case was being made by the government that the Poles were posing a real and present danger to the fatherland. And so action against Poland was merely self defense.

But let’s suppose that this particular German soldier happened to hear a rumor from a resistance group on his shortwave radio that said this action against Poland was completely unjustified aggression. Now what is our good Catholic German soldier to do? Nothing definitive has come to light for him, but he has his doubts. Do you claim that God will send him to hell for diserting the Germany army to join the resistance?

Actually the question is much larger than the war in Iraq. Even granting that the war in Iraq is just, what about the next war? Are we to automatically assume that every future war waged by the US is just? When will you allow that an individual US citizen might validly choose to refuse to fight in such a war?

The Catechism states that the decision as to whether a war is just belongs to those who have responsibility for the common good. This need not be only the official government. Otherwise the Catechism would have said this determination is for civil authorities only. But it doesn’t say that. To some extent, everyone has some responsibility for the common good. So an individual can consider the Catholic principles of a just war for himself. The Catechism does not force everyone to blindly follow their government.

 

[Timothysis]

No I don’t. I am simply saying that following Christ is more important than following anyone (or anything) else. Is that wrong?

We need to follow the lawful authority in our lives and in those stations that we hold. Certainly we are to follow Christ, but when uninformed people such as yourself start extrapolating your opinion of what “following Christ” means into every nook and cranny of life opens up a Pandora’s box of chaos. Hopefully, we have the mental ability to organize and critically analyze the hundreds of nuanced occasions throughout the day when we realize what it means to do the right thing.

Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church teaches that following military law (or other “areas of life”) are more important than following Christ?

You sound like those people who walk around deliberately breaking the law, proclaiming that you don’t follow man’s laws, but God’s. It doesn’t present a very positive picture. As said earlier, there is even an Archdiocese of the Military. Don’t you think that the legitimate authorities of the Church are on to something that you’ve missed???

 

[Timothysis]

The Catechism states that the decision as to whether a war is just belongs to those who have responsibility for the common good. This need not be only the official government. Otherwise the Catechism would have said this determination is for civil authorities only. But it doesn’t say that. To some extent, everyone has some responsibility for the common good. So an individual can consider the Catholic principles of a just war for himself. The Catechism does not force everyone to blindly follow their government.

This is a complete personal opinion of what the Catechism says. The phrase "those who have responsibility for the common good" obviously refers to those who are the legitimate authority of the state, i.e. civil officials.

So an individual can consider the Catholic principles of a just war for himself.

Are you advocating a form or moral relativism? You do know that moral relativism is condemned by the Church, don’t you? In any event, you are completely mistaken in this personal opinion of yours.

The Catechism does not force everyone to blindly follow their government.

No it doesn’t, but it does say that we all have a duty to follow the laws of the legitimate authority of a country. Even the scripture verse, "give to Caesar those things that are Caesars, but give to God those things that are Gods" supports and has been used to justify civil authority.

 

[Vince1022]

We need to follow the lawful authority in our lives and in those stations that we hold. Certainly we are to follow Christ, but when uninformed people such as yourself start extrapolating your opinion of what “following Christ” means into every nook and cranny of life opens up a Pandora’s box of chaos. Hopefully, we have the mental ability to organize and critically analyze the hundreds of nuanced occasions throughout the day when we realize what it means to do the right thing.

Oh, wow. I apologize for being uninformed, and for extrapolating my opinion. Just to be clear, though, and back to the topic of this thread…if a nation decides to go to war in a situation that clearly does not satisfy Catholic just war criteria, what are you suggesting a Catholic in the military should do? Follow the Church or the state?

By the way, I served in the U.S. Navy. Have you served in the military? Just curious.

 

[Vince1022]

You sound like those people who walk around deliberately breaking the law, proclaiming that you don’t follow man’s laws, but God’s. It doesn’t present a very positive picture. As said earlier, there is even an Archdiocese of the Military. Don’t you think that the legitimate authorities of the Church are on to something that you’ve missed???

Thank you for your concern. No, I am not one who walks around deliberately breaking the law.

Yes, the Catholic Church does have an Archdiocese for the Military Services…so…your point is what?

Surely you’re not suggesting that the simple fact that the Church ministers to those in the military means that every military decision by the U.S. government is in accord with Catholic teaching? Are you? If not…what’s the point of bringing up the Archdiocese for Military Services?

By the way…just curious…have you served in the U.S. military?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

This is a complete personal opinion of what the Catechism says. The phrase "those who have responsibility for the common good" obviously refers to those who are the legitimate authority of the state, i.e. civil officials.

That is not obvious to me, nor was it obvious to the two priests I asked who gave me the interpretation I cited. If they had meant civil authorities they would have said civil authorities. Your interpretation seems to be more of a personal opinion than mine.

Are you advocating a form or moral relativism? You do know that moral relativism is condemned by the Church, don’t you? In any event, you are completely mistaken in this personal opinion of yours.

No, of course I’m not advocating moral relativism. That is where someone claims there is no objective truth, I’m claiming there is an objective truth, and the individual is bound to seek it and not to abdicate that responsibility by saying “I was only following orders.”. Blind obedience to whatever government you happen to be living under - that is moral relativism because it says that one government’s idea of what is moral is just as valid as another government’s idea of what is moral. Remember that in most wars, there are two legitimate governments involved. Or do you believe that only the US government has a claim on its citizens?

Even the scripture verse, "give to Caesar those things that are Caesars, but give to God those things that are Gods" supports and has been used to justify civil authority.

…only if you believe that unquestioning obedience in fighting a war is one of those things that “belongs to Ceasar”.

And why won’t you answer my other questions I raised in the posting from which you so selectively picked?

 

[Vince1022]

It is the place of the US government to determine what constitutes a just war in Iraq.

Not according to Catholic teaching.

Can you provide any Catholic Church teaching to support your opinion? thanks.