Missing Books Dilemna

[JoeyWarren]

How would you counter this argument?

Your premise is completely wrong.
The Septuagint was written about 250 B.C. It is simply a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Why should we not accept it, just as any other translation of the Bible? It is the oldest translation of the Bible. I have a copy of it myself.
What is wrong with another translation of the Old Testament.

The Apocrypha was written between 130 B.C. and 50 A.D. How could books written between 130 and 50 A.D. be contained in a book written in 250 B.C. That is ludicrous! The apocrypha are spurious books that were never accepted by early Christians, never accepted by the Jews, never accepted by the Protestants, and only officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent in 1532. They do not belong in the Bible at all, and in fact, teach doctrine contrary to actual Biblical doctrine. Some of them are written as fanciful fairy tales, and do not even read as Scripture. The “13th and 14th” chapters of Daniel are two such stories that are mythical stories that read like fairy-tales, hard to believe even for a child. You might as well believe in the Easter bunny and Santa Clause then to believe in the contents of those books.Your premise is completely wrong.

 

[Mike_Dye]

How would you counter this argument?

Every collection or catalogue of Holy Scripture from the fourth century to the sixteenth century contained what the protesters call the Apocrypha. These consist of the books Tobit, Baruch, Judith, Wisdom. Sirach, 1&2 Macabees and parts of Esther and Daniel. These were neatly tossed out by Luther, Calvin and other reformers. It just shows that when you become your own authority not only can you toss out scripture that does not agree with your theology, you can also toss out history. Luther even wanted to toss the Letter of St. James, stating it was unworthy to be included in Holy Scriptures. It just shows what depths of impiety can be reached by those who become an their own authority.

 

[Mystophilus]

The Septuagint was written about 250 B.C. It is simply a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.

This is not entirely accurate. The LXX is a compilation of translations performed over a period starting (traditionally) in 270 or 272 BC and ending at about 70 BC. It cannot accurately be described as “a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament”, because the Hebrew Old Testament did not have the canon then which it has now.

Reading the NT, you will see references to the Law and the Prophets; these are two of the three parts of the Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh, and did not include Daniel, Ezra, Chronicles, Psalms, or any of the ‘Wisdom’ books (Proverbs, etc). The Septuagint, however, was a wide project: they translated many texts, including not only those which would, at the Council of Jamnia at the end of the C1st AD, come to be the third part of the Tanakh, the Writings, but also other texts which would not be so included, and would be described as ‘apocypha’ (“hidden things”, but later a shorthand for ‘inauthentic’). It should also be noted that the LXX is not just one collection: there are multiple versions, with some variation in the texts that appear in each. We should really say “Septuagints”.

Note that the content of the ‘apocrypha’ depends on the content of the canon. Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox and others all have different canons, and so all have different lists of ‘apocryphal’ texts.

The Apocrypha was written between 130 B.C. and 50 A.D.

This is thoroughly in accurate. The apocrypha are all of the ancient writings about God which were not included in the Bible. The earliest, such as the Ethiopic Enoch and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs most likely date from some time in the C2nd BC. The latest is probably the Apocalypse of Daniel, which may date from the C9th AD. Then there are all the NT apocrypha, also.

The apocrypha are spurious books that were never accepted by early Christians, never accepted by the Jews, never accepted by the Protestants, and only officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent in 1532. They do not belong in the Bible at all, and in fact, teach doctrine contrary to actual Biblical doctrine.

The Council of Trent officially sanctioned the books which Jerome included in the Latin Vulgate but the Jews did not include in the Tanakh: Sirach, Tobit, Judith, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Baruch, and the other bits of Daniel. They did this because they had always used those texts, and because the Protestants had just condemned those texts.

The Protestant reformers were setting up the Bible as an authority over the Catholic Church, and thus had a new need for unquestionable textual authenticity. They seized upon Jerome’s hesitation about those texts, and excised them from the canon. Jerome was uncertain about them because he could not find a Hebrew source text for any of them, only Greek versions, and this led him to note his doubts in the Vulgate, in the prologue to each book.

Your correspondent is presumably a Protestant who imagines the apocrypha to include only those texts. Quite possibly, s/he believes that the apocrypha are evil lies fabricated by the Devil to contaminate the Word of God an mislead believers.

Introduction to Bible Canons:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible
Introduction to Jerome:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome
Introduction to the Septuagint:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint
Wikipedia can be a good introduction to all sorts of things, but its accuracy is less than perfect.

A collection of some of the apocrypha:
pseudepigrapha.com/
A Jewish source, on the canon of the Bible:
jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1025&letter=B&search=bible

Feel free to PM me if you want more data: I find the apocrypha quite interesting, and have read up on this quite a bit.

 

[Sabda]

That is ludicrous! The apocrypha are spurious books that were never accepted by early Christians

First off, were is his proof? I’m currently looking at the The Decree of Damasus and I can honestly say that it disagrees with him. It has listed in it all 46 of the Old Testament books that Catholics use. It was written in 382 AD.

catholic-legate.com/card/scripture/card-canonicity-damasus.html

There are also more writings that list the same books. There have been 4 councils that listed the canon of Scripture. They are the Council of Carthage(393 AD) and Hippo(397 AD). I have not looked but I have also heard the Council of Florence(1441) also list the canon. Then of course there is the Council of Trent and the Vatican II council. All of these list the same canon for Scripture.

Before you do anything else though ask for proof.

 

[JoeyWarren]

This is his proof:

BOOKS OF THE APOCRYPHA
Inasmuch as the fourteen apocryphal have been placed in the Canon of the Old Testament by the Roman Catholic Church, and have been rejected by Protestants, it is necessary that the canonicity of these books be considered. If these books are a part of the Scriptures, are canonical, we have no right to exclude them, and if the claims made for their canonicity are erroneous they should be rejected. It is at this point the question can be most appropriately considered.

The Fourteen Books
The word “Apocrypha” signifies “secret” or “hidden” and is applied to a class of writings relative to portions of the Old Testament, and to similar writings in connection with the New Testament. The following are the Old Testament books of The Apocrypha.

1. I Esdras. 2. II Esdras. 3. Tobit. 4. Judith. 5. Additions to the book of Esther. 6. In the Wisdom of Solomon. 7. Ecclesiasticus (the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach). 8. Baruch (Ch. VI—the Epistle of Jeremy). 9. The Song of the Three Holy Children (The Prayer of Azarias and the Song of the Three). 10. The History of Susanna. 11. The History of the Destruction of Bel and Dragon. (9, 10 and 11 are the additions to the book of Daniel.) 12. The Prayer of Manasses, King of Judah. 13. I Maccabees. 14. II Maccabees.
   These books were included as a part of the Old Testament Canon by the Council of Trent, 1546 A.D. It is true they were assigned a somewhat inferior rank. They are rejected by the Protestant Church as wholly spurious and not to be allowed even an inferior place in the Sacred Canon.

The Hebrew Canon
The Scriptures of the Old Testament constitute the national literature of the Jews. What is of first importance is what they regarded as their sacred Canon, the full number of writings of which it consisted. There are four general divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures: the Law, or Pentateuch, the Historical Books, the Poetical Books and the Prophets. These appeared at different stages of their history, and consequently individual books were prepared and preserved before there was a collection.

In the reign of Josiah (642-611 B.C.), while the Temple was being repaired, the book of the Law was found. The fact that prophetical writers made use of the works of each other, as in the case of Jeremiah who made use of Isaiah, and the use Daniel made of Jeremiah (Da. 9.2,11,13), clearly shows that these works were in a specific form and available. The references to the sacred writers, following the Exile also proves that the Scriptures had been preserved during the period of the Captivity (Ez. 6.18; Ne. 8.1).

Josephus, the Jewish historian, who was born about 37 A.D., was fully competent to state what constituted the Old Testament Canon, the Scriptures as recognized by the Jews. He positively declares that the last of the sacred books was written during the reign of Artaxerxes, king of Persia. The reader is referred to our studies in Ezra and Nehemiah. The following statement by Josephus is noteworthy: “Although so great an interval of time has now passed, not a soul has ventured to add or to remove or to alter a syllable, and it is the instinct of every Jew, from the day of his birth, to consider these Scriptures as the teaching of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully lay down his life in their behalf.” And his enumeration and description of these books show that they were the same as those of the Old Testament as we now have it.

(quoted from the Dixon Analytical Bible helps)

 

[JoeyWarren]

Part 2:

The New Testament does not leave us in doubt as to what constituted the Scriptures of the Old Testament. This was clearly indicated by our Lord when He said that all things must be fulfilled which were written “in the Law of Moses, and the prophets and the psalms concerning” Himself. The prophets included the historical books, and in the Hebrew Bible the Psalms is the first book in the third division. “With few exceptions, the New Testament quotes directly or refers to all the books of the Old Testament and that is especially true of the various groups of books. Thus they have the highest sanction and acceptance of our Lord and His apostles which establishes for all time their divine and authoritative character.”

The Apocrypha in the Septuagint
If the evidence against the canonicity of these books is conclusive, how did they get into the Bible? They were never, at any time, given a place in the Hebrew Bible, and that fact is of supreme significance question is raised as how they got into the Bible. From time to time they were admitted into the Septuagint Version (283-30 B.C.) which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, and was used in Alexandria in Egypt almost exclusively by the Greek-speaking Jews as the Word of God. It was either because of lax views of canonicity or for the convenience of using these books ecclesiastically, that they were admitted to this version.

This admission of these books is explained in a satisfactory manner by Bissell: The Septuagint version becoming, subsequently, to the great mass of Gentile Christians, as well as to such Jews as did not understand Hebrew, the authoritative standard, the limits of the true original canon were almost wholly effaced. And in addition to the uncritical character of the period the difficulty was, for a time, still further enhanced by the controversies carried on between the Jews and Christians, each appealing to his own copy of the Scriptures. The fact, too, that the early translations of the vernacular of the people, like the Old Latin, were made from the Septuagint, helped to fasten upon and make hereditary in the Church the Alexandrian confusion and mistake."

 

[Liberian]

Joey,

There are several places where the New Testament refers to the Septuagint. In particular, the “roll call of heroes” in Hebrews parallels a similar passage in Sirach. Jude quotes Enoch as well.

• Liberian

 

[JoeyWarren]

Joey,

There are several places where the New Testament refers to the Septuagint. In particular, the “roll call of heroes” in Hebrews parallels a similar passage in Sirach. Jude quotes Enoch as well.

• Liberian

Yes I know that. I am trying to get arguments against what is claimed by a Protestant.

 

[thistle]

DEUTEROCANONICALS REFERENCED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

continued…

 

[thistle]

continued…

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 6:18, 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.