Modernism in the Orthodox Church

[Hesychios]

Hesychios,

When hierarchs turn a “blind” eye, or reduce Orthodox morality to “personal choice”, either publicly or privately, yes, I would call this modernism. More experienced Orthodox than me have witnessed this.

I don’t doubt that there have been cases like this. If what you are saying is that clerics and bishops have been giving “economy” or “dispensations” (the Latin term) for sinful acts I would agree with you that it is wrong. It is always reprehensible.

It has not been my misfortune to personally encounter anything along those lines, thankfully. I will just assume that fallible humans will make errors. Even spiritual directors, who bear such a great burden for us, will make errors so long as they are really human. God help them.

The “which calendar” question seems like a yapping puppy compared to how Orthodox people engage the culture in some places. When feminism, materialism, and commercialism creep up into the highest ranks of Orthodoxy, I don’t understand how this isn’t modernism. Is it just because technically they still have their theology right?

I think correct theology is a necessary basis for the church. Without it, we have a house built upon sand.

Since the original poster was self identified as a Catholic asking about Modernism, I presume he was asking about the theological heresy, which was defined and condemned by bishop of Rome Pius X, I have based all of my responses on that.

The original poster did state that he did not observe “pushing for things like women’s ordination, same sex marriage” in Holy Orthodoxy (and neither have I), as if to say that these may be indicators of a Modernistic tendency.

If you want to point out that sin exists in the church, I will not dispute the point.

 

[Hesychios]

Hesychios,

When hierarchs turn a “blind” eye, or reduce Orthodox morality to “personal choice”, either publicly or privately, yes, I would call this modernism. More experienced Orthodox than me have witnessed this.

I don’t doubt that there have been cases like this. If what you are saying is that clerics and bishops have been giving “economy” or “dispensations” (the Latin term) for sinful acts I would agree with you that it is wrong. It is always reprehensible.

It has not been my misfortune to personally encounter anything along those lines, thankfully. I will just assume that fallible humans will make errors. Even spiritual directors, who bear such a great burden for us, will make errors so long as they are really human. God help them.

The “which calendar” question seems like a yapping puppy compared to how Orthodox people engage the culture in some places. When feminism, materialism, and commercialism creep up into the highest ranks of Orthodoxy, I don’t understand how this isn’t modernism. Is it just because technically they still have their theology right?

I think correct theology is a necessary basis for the church. Without it, we have a house built upon sand.

Since the original poster was self identified as a Catholic asking about Modernism, I presume he was asking about the theological heresy, which was defined and condemned by bishop of Rome Pius X, I have based all of my responses on that.

The original poster did state that he did not observe “pushing for things like women’s ordination, same sex marriage” in Holy Orthodoxy (and neither have I), as if to say that these may be indicators of a Modernistic tendency.

If you want to point out that sin exists in the church, I will not dispute the point.

 

[Harpazo]

Hi Mickey,

Sorry, I did not read this thread for a long time. No, it’s OK. I should be here for a year. I am comfortable, the food is good and the natives are very friendly.

My language skills are still poor, but improving. I am hoping to make some business contacts and move forward with that, then return to the USA.

Unfortunately, Christianity is largely missing from this society. The Latin Catholic church collapsed in this area, from a diocese to a single parish, and that one is in the Patriotic Association. The parishioners are very devout.

The nearest Orthodox parish is in Korea! The Orthodox priesthood was completely eliminated in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.
*
Michael*

Lord, have mercy!

I pray for a productive stay and a safe trip home! A souvenir would be nice.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[John_Larocque]

That’s a pretty bold claim. I am quite interested in the assertion. Quite frankly, I don’t think most Orthodox would understand religious modernism if you placed the definition in front of them.
Can you cite some examples of modernism in Holy Orthodoxy? Perhaps you can cite some examples in modern Latin Catholicism and then show us an Orthodox equivalent?

I don’t mean to target Greek Orthodox specifically, but this was where I saw most of the liturgical deviations. Orthodox services (Russian and Greek) are typically 2 hours long. But there is the phenomenon of people coming in late. I went to this one Greek service where they actually placed the sermon after the words of institution and the epiklesis (i.e. Eucharistic consecration). Even the collection took place. The sermon itself was traditional fare (“children, obey your parents, parents, be good examples to your children.”) Nevertheless I found that experience jarring and found out that this is actually common in the Greek North American church. They have made this concession because people are filing in late - they miss the epistle and gospel readings and show up moments before the anaphora. So they have the sermon and collection when the people show up, even if it interrupts the anaphora.

There are other liturgical concessions that date a bit further back than that - semi-kneeling during words of institution/epiklesis. Most Greek-American churches have pews. Perhaps they were importing some Anglican practices as a result of discussions with Anglicans back in the 1920s and 1930s. I suspect Antiochians are similar in liturgical space.

Another concession to North Americans is the English bible readings, which are sometimes not sung but simply read. This is certainly against Orthodox tradition, although I have seen this first hand at the first Greek service I visited. Note, at the semi-bilingual service, the Greek epistle/gospel was chanted, which is the norm.

Is this modernism? Perhaps not. But they are concessions.

 

[Harpazo]

I don’t mean to target Greek Orthodox specifically, but this was where I saw most of the liturgical deviations. Orthodox services (Russian and Greek) are typically 2 hours long. But there is the phenomenon of people coming in late. I went to this one Greek service where they actually placed the sermon after the words of institution and the epiklesis (i.e. Eucharistic consecration). Even the collection took place. The sermon itself was traditional fare (“children, obey your parents, parents, be good examples to your children.”) Nevertheless I found that experience jarring and found out that this is actually common in the Greek North American church. They have made this concession because people are filing in late - they miss the epistle and gospel readings and show up moments before the anaphora. So they have the sermon and collection when the people show up, even if it interrupts the anaphora.

There are other liturgical concessions that date a bit further back than that - semi-kneeling during words of institution/epiklesis. Most Greek-American churches have pews. Perhaps they were importing some Anglican practices as a result of discussions with Anglicans back in the 1920s and 1930s. I suspect Antiochians are similar in liturgical space.

Another concession to North Americans is the English bible readings, which are sometimes not sung but simply read. This is certainly against Orthodox tradition, although I have seen this first hand at the first Greek service I visited. Note, at the semi-bilingual service, the Greek epistle/gospel was chanted, which is the norm.

Is this modernism? Perhaps not. But they are concessions.

The place of the homily is a non-issue, IMO. The GOA priest here in Roanoke does his homily after the Eucharist has been given to the faithful, but my priest (Bulgarian diocese) does his after the Gospel reading. There is not really a set time to have the homily, but ideally it would be after the Gospel reading.

Kneeling is a different story. I’ve heard of Russians doing a quick prostration on Sundays and then jumping right back up. My parish does not kneel on Sundays. These other Orthodox who do kneel on Sundays (they are not that many) should learn the reasons why we stand throughout the Liturgy and have been doing so ante-Nicaea.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[brigantine]

I don’t mean to target Greek Orthodox specifically, but this was where I saw most of the liturgical deviations. Orthodox services (Russian and Greek) are typically 2 hours long. But there is the phenomenon of people coming in late. I went to this one Greek service where they actually placed the sermon after the words of institution and the epiklesis (i.e. Eucharistic consecration). Even the collection took place. The sermon itself was traditional fare (“children, obey your parents, parents, be good examples to your children.”) Nevertheless I found that experience jarring and found out that this is actually common in the Greek North American church. They have made this concession because people are filing in late - they miss the epistle and gospel readings and show up moments before the anaphora. So they have the sermon and collection when the people show up, even if it interrupts the anaphora.

This is the norm in the Greek Church. Also you can see a Parish numbers grow by 5 or 6 times for the Pascha service. I’m not sure this is modernism though. Its the end result of mixing nationalism with religion. Don’t get me wrong the Church should play a role in a nations life but when it becomes just a national symbol and losses the religious aspect you have a problem. This has happened in the Greek Church in the US. Most Greeks look at being Greek and Orthodox as one in the same instead of a religion. Going to Church is more of a civic duty than a religious observance. I’ve seen this over and over in multiple Churches and States to have this be a coincidence.

P.S. I want to also state that this is not all Greeks but it tends to be most of the younger ones who look at Orthodoxy as a Greek thing. I’ve meet some old Greeks who are wonderful pious Orthodox Christians that you can see the love of God in!

 

[Mickey]

The Orthodox priesthood was completely eliminated in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.

My prayers are with you.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I don’t mean to target Greek Orthodox specifically, but this was where I saw most of the liturgical deviations. Orthodox services (Russian and Greek) are typically 2 hours long. But there is the phenomenon of people coming in late. I went to this one Greek service where they actually placed the sermon after the words of institution and the epiklesis (i.e. Eucharistic consecration). Even the collection took place. The sermon itself was traditional fare (“children, obey your parents, parents, be good examples to your children.”) Nevertheless I found that experience jarring and found out that this is actually common in the Greek North American church. They have made this concession because people are filing in late - they miss the epistle and gospel readings and show up moments before the anaphora. So they have the sermon and collection when the people show up, even if it interrupts the anaphora.

There are other liturgical concessions that date a bit further back than that - semi-kneeling during words of institution/epiklesis. Most Greek-American churches have pews. Perhaps they were importing some Anglican practices as a result of discussions with Anglicans back in the 1920s and 1930s. I suspect Antiochians are similar in liturgical space.

Another concession to North Americans is the English bible readings, which are sometimes not sung but simply read. This is certainly against Orthodox tradition, although I have seen this first hand at the first Greek service I visited. Note, at the semi-bilingual service, the Greek epistle/gospel was chanted, which is the norm.

Is this modernism? Perhaps not. But they are concessions.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I don’t mean to target Greek Orthodox specifically, but this was where I saw most of the liturgical deviations. Orthodox services (Russian and Greek) are typically 2 hours long. But there is the phenomenon of people coming in late. I went to this one Greek service where they actually placed the sermon after the words of institution and the epiklesis (i.e. Eucharistic consecration).

They have made this concession because people are filing in late - they miss the epistle and gospel readings and show up moments before the anaphora. So they have the sermon and collection when the people show up, even if it interrupts the anaphora.

I just want to clear up a misconception you have re: the reason in Greek Churches it is the norm for the Sermon to come at the end of the Divine Liturgy rather than after the Scripture Readings. In the Orthodox Church, all baptized, including infants and children, receive the Most Holy Eucharist. The children stay in the Church (either with their parents or together with their Church School Classmates in the pew designated for their grade - depends on the parish) worshipping through out the Divine Liturgy and after receiving the Most Holy Eucharist they are dismissed to go to Church School. Church School provides them the education they can digest at their age level and the parents (and other adults) are able to be educated by listening to the Sermon directed to them (undistracted by the children). This is the norm. There are exceptions for the norm, like sometimes during the summer or when the priest thinks it’s necessary or appropriate, the Sermon will be given after the Readings while the children are still present.

Now to address the issue of those coming in late. I confirm a few people come in late. However, a visitor may think someone is coming in late, when really the parishioner is on time…what?! Let me explain: Orthros is held in the Church immediately before Divine Liturgy begins - to a visitor, they will not notice any transition between Orthros and Divine Liturgy as the Canton & Priests flow it one right into another. So sometimes, thinking someone came late is a misconception.

Another thing to consider if someone comes in during the procession of the Bible up to Scripture readings have been completed, they must wait outside the main part of the Church (where they first come in to light their candles and venerate the Icons) until the readings are all completed - in the Greek Church they are chanted in both Greek and English and are generally quite lengthy. So after the Scripture Readings, generally, you see a huge wave of people come in - yet they may have arrived 20 minutes or more earlier.

But let’s get to the heart of the issue at hand: There are definitely some people really do come in late, some even after the consecration - so what about them? Can being late be prevented? sometimes, depends on the cause - car accident, alarm didn’t go off, had to get their elderly mother ready and she wasn’t having a good morning, etc. If people seem to come in late is right the for those who came on time or for visitors to jump to conclusion that the reason was laziness or disrepect judging their hearts and assuming that therefore the late comers do not truly hold the Orthodox Faith in their hearts, but that it is just a “cultural” thing to them and they don’t care? Absolutely not!

In fact, Jesus Himself told a parable which address the fact that He is most generous and gives the same gift to those who come at the 11th hour as those who had been their first thing - you may want to re-read Matthew 20:1-16. Jesus is Merciful and loving and gives as a gift Himself in Holy Eucharist even to those who show up late - He loves us. I certainly don’t want to be the one like those laborers who were jealous or upset that Jesus gives the same to those who come late. I don’t need to know why they were late, I just need to know and be happy that they are there worshipping God with me! I encourage you or anyone who is bothered by other’s tardiness to be at peace, know that if the same person or persons is repeatedly late for what Jesus would consider not a good reason, then he will make sure that the priest notices (they have a great view of the congregation ) and will lay it on the priests heart to inquire on the situation and deal with it privately - it’s none of our concern and we should not allow it to cause us to sin by jumping to judging late comers, gossiping about them, etc.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

This is the norm in the Greek Church. Also you can see a Parish numbers grow by 5 or 6 times for the Pascha service.

I know what when I attend Pascha, the numbers I personally bring are normally at least double, if not triple, as compared to a normal - the reason being: I usually have family form out of town that come to Church with me. For parents with adult children and children off at college, it’s the same, family is visiting from out of town and very one goes to the parish of their host (which often times, is the visitors childhood parish). Some people who are very sick on an on-going basis unable to attend Divine Liturgy - like those living in Nursing Homes - will normally make the appropriate effort to be there during Pascha.

Of course, there will be those who may not be practicing their Faith on a regular basis that make sure they show up for Pascha.

For those reading this who don’t know Pascha means Passover which is celebrated in the West under the name of a pagan goddess: Easter. Orthodox Christians in the U.S., at least, typically use both names depending on who they are speak with to prevent confusion. For Orthodox, Pascha/Easter is celebrated at Midnight until about 3 in the morning with prayers beginning about about 10pm the night before (if you don’t get there by the time the beginning prayers start, you may not be able to find a place in the main part of the Church because it really is packed). So all in all, it’s about 5+ hours in the middle of the night. At about 10 am, people will also come back to Church to meet together (fewer people, since many are unable to function with the lack of sleep ) for the Agape Service followed by a huge feast.

 

[John_Larocque]

I just want to clear up a misconception you have re: the reason in Greek Churches it is the norm for the Sermon to come at the end of the Divine Liturgy rather than after the Scripture Readings. In the Orthodox Church, all baptized, including infants and children, receive the Most Holy Eucharist. The children stay in the Church (either with their parents or together with their Church School Classmates in the pew designated for their grade - depends on the parish) worshipping through out the Divine Liturgy and after receiving the Most Holy Eucharist they are dismissed to go to Church School. Church School provides them the education they can digest at their age level and the parents (and other adults) are able to be educated by listening to the Sermon directed to them (undistracted by the children). This is the norm. There are exceptions for the norm, like sometimes during the summer or when the priest thinks it’s necessary or appropriate, the Sermon will be given after the Readings while the children are still present.

During the time I was in the parish, it was about half full during the Epistle and Gospel readings, but by the time of the anaphora it was 80% full. It was a half bilingual service and I arrived at the tail end of Orthros, which typically takes place around 10AM. I was able to follow along fairly well with the missalette (or whatever they are called) in the pew.

The Sermon did not come in at the tail end of the liturgy. Both the sermon and the collection took place AFTER the epiklesis but BEFORE distribution of Holy Communion. I just thought it was very odd to pass around a money plate just moments after everybody was (semi) kneeling at the moment the priest called down the Holy Spirit and the words of institution.

I don’t really care where the sermon is during the service, for me, having it placed at that moment interupted the rhythm of what was going on. Having it tacked on at the end, which I’ve seen in both Russian and Ukrainian Catholic settings, seems to be a better solution. It certainly “flows” better. I’m not interested in “judging” those who show up late, but passing around the money plate moments after one of the holiest moments of the service just felt… wrong.

 

[brigantine]

I know what when I attend Pascha, the numbers I personally bring are normally at least double, if not triple, as compared to a normal - the reason being: I usually have family form out of town that come to Church with me. For parents with adult children and children off at college, it’s the same, family is visiting from out of town and very one goes to the parish of their host (which often times, is the visitors childhood parish). Some people who are very sick on an on-going basis unable to attend Divine Liturgy - like those living in Nursing Homes - will normally make the appropriate effort to be there during Pascha.

Hi SingleMomMonica

I’m hesitant to respond to this because I really do not feel lateness is a modernism thing but it seems the topic may be going in that direction.

I think we are talking about two different situations. I know there are people that bring family members to Church on that night that raises the numbers but that’s not what I was referring to. It’s the same people that show up year after year only on Pascha that I was referring to. Here is one example. One of the Churches I attended was a small mission that always struggled but got through it with the help of a local Monastery. We always had Pasch at the Monastery because it was nicer and easier to do the procession there. We also did other services throught the year there when the need arises and the Nuns were our choir at the mission. The first time I was there for Pascha I could not believe the numbers that were there. I asked one of the Sisters about this and she said it was the local Greeks. I had no clue there was local Greeks since most in the mission were Russian, Ukrainian, or converts. I made the comment that it would help a lot if they came and supported the mission. The Sister said they were all asked when they first started the mission and not one would support it. The reason was this was a Russian mission and they would only support their Greek Churches back in NY City! I was amazed! Most of these people do not even stay for the entire service. They stay for the procession and maybe 20 minutes after that and leave. If any of their kids are serving as Alter server they make them leave also. I went there for about 10 years and it was the same thing year after year after year with the same people. Not one of the Greek families there would make it to the end of the service!

I could really go on but I don’t want to turn this into a Greek bashing thread. There is a problem and it really needs to be addressed within that Church. Its not just the occasion late person it’s the same late people who come to services week after week late. Its also not in one Church its in many of them. To many to be a coincidence.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Kneeling is a different story. I’ve heard of Russians doing a quick prostration on Sundays and then jumping right back up. My parish does not kneel on Sundays. These other Orthodox who do kneel on Sundays (they are not that many) should learn the reasons why we stand throughout the Liturgy and have been doing so ante-Nicaea.

In Christ,
Andrew

Orthodox in general do not kneel on Sunday due to Canon 20 of the Council of Nicaea which reads: “On the Lord’s Day and at Pentecost all must pray standing and not kneeling.”

This is maintained by 100% by all Orthodox Churches between Easter & Pentecost and by most Orthodox Churches during the rest of the year.

I’ve heard it said that it is only in the United States that some Churches, like the Greek Church, allow kneeling on Sundays during some of the year. In each of the Greek Orthodox Monasteries I’ve visited in the U.S., there are no pews & no kneeling.

In Orthodoxy, pews & kneeling are considered “modernism” as is using the Gregorian Calendar to date Feasts rather than the Julian Calendar…so you can see that belly dancing could never have a place in an Orthodox Divine Liturgy!

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I was able to follow along fairly well with the missalette (or whatever they are called) in the pew.

It’s called the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. The name is written on the cover.

AFTER the epiklesis but BEFORE distribution of Holy Communion. I just thought it was very odd to pass around a money plate just moments after everybody was (semi) kneeling at the moment the priest called down the Holy Spirit and the words of institution.

Kneeling on a Sunday is uncanonical (20th Canon of the Council of Nicaea), but there are some Greek Churches in the United States that allow kneeling on Sundays before Pascha and after Pentecost - however, the kneeling should only be for about 2 minutes - why anyone would still be kneeling after the prayers is just wierd.

Giving Tithe and Offerings is a way to worship God - to be humble by giving back to God a portion of what He has given you - I don’t see how it would be odd, why would you not want to give to Him right before He gives Himself to you in Holy Eucharist?

 

[Volodymyr]

*NEOCHRISTIANITY (MODERNISM)*

In beginning 20th century in Russian midst of spiritual searchings of intellectuals there arose a new religious-philosophical teaching, which soon took name Neo Christianity or modernism (from Modernus Lat. for contemporary). Its founders were well known writers and religious publicists and philosophers of the "silver age: including D Merezhkovskij, N Berdjajev and others. Being followers of Vl. Solov’joev, who taught the apperance of “new religion of Holy spirit.”, these followers rejected the traditional church and Church fathers. In their many articles, books, presentations D Merezhkovskij, N Berdjajev, Vja Ivanov and other proponents of “new religious consciousness, anticipated the appearance of a certain new spiritual epoch from which they awaited new “revealings of spirit.” Traditional Chrisitanity and Church, in their opinion had not fulfilled their mission in history, and now they must enter into a new “charismatized christianity”, renewed through new “pouring of spirit” in world. Christan modernism above all else came out against basis of christian faith - teaching about salvation and church, Coming out against Orthodox tradition, the proponents and adepts of modernism in Russian introduced a whole program of religious reformation. Following Vl Solov’jov these creators of “new religious consciousness and society” tried to change Christianity from religion of Salvation to a kind new “charismatic religion”, the philosophical, cultural and social creation of 20th century. In Christianity they above all else were seeking as wrote N. Berdjajev “the uncovering of religious concept of human creation.”. This in his words would be a way to exit the framework of traditional official Orthodoxy.” These modernists tried to unite also mystical teaching of Catolic monk Ioachim Florskij living in 13 century in Italy with widespread idea at that time of “third testament.” . The rejected Orthodox church, grace of Holy Spirit in Church, the neo-christian third testament was from new pouring of Holy Spirit. According to teaching of one of originators of religious Modernism in Russian D. Merezhkovskij, “The Old testament was religion of God in world, Second testament - of Son - religion of God in man. The God-man. the Third Testament is the religion of God in humanity.” The theology of Modernism is expressed above all else in creation of a new teaching about Wisdom (sophia) - wisdom of God and sophiology or sophianstvo. In modern times Modernism has been partially resurrected in Russian society under influence of western ideas of “adzhornamento” first appearing in Rome in 1962. Now Modernism opposes mostly Tradition - opposes canonical life of chuch and spiritual life of Orthdoxy. They maintain that it is necessary to shorten holy services, rejected mystery of confession before Eucharistic communion, and to translate from Julian calendar to “new” Latin Gregorian calendar which is an obvious departure from Orthodox tradition and church canons. Current adepts of modernism are among those most eager for use of contemporary Russian language in liturgy.

 

[John_Larocque]

I thought the service itself was the “Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom”, not the name of the booklet in the pew. If you really want to split hairs, it’s a published text of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. In the Catholic church, published liturgical texts with the daily or weekly readings are usually called missals or missalettes.

Kneeling on a Sunday is uncanonical (20th Canon of the Council of Nicaea), but there are some Greek Churches in the United States that allow kneeling on Sundays before Pascha and after Pentecost - however, the kneeling should only be for about 2 minutes - why anyone would still be kneeling after the prayers is just wierd.

Giving Tithe and Offerings is a way to worship God - to be humble by giving back to God a portion of what He has given you - I don’t see how it would be odd, why would you not want to give to Him right before He gives Himself to you in Holy Eucharist?

Well, having attended Masses for many, many years, and the collection in Catholic churches usually takes place around the same time that the gifts are presented (by laymen) from the back of the church to the front. That is to say, gifts of the laity are roughly co-incident with the arrival of the bread and wine. I think it would be unreasonable to expect direct parellels between Eastern and Western traditions - they are two different liturgical traditions. But association is there in Western liturgies.

I also hold to an odd prejudice - money is “dirty” - and in more ways than one. It gets passed back and forth from person to person and you don’t know who has touched it, so there’s the health/germ factor on top of the “love of money is the root of all evil”. I know… weird and hard to explain, but may give you an insight into my reactions.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I thought the service itself was the “Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom”, not the name of the booklet in the pew. If you really want to split hairs, it’s a published text of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. In the Catholic church, published liturgical texts with the daily or weekly readings are usually called missals or missalettes.

Right that is the name of the Divine Liturgy celebrated, except on the Feast Day of St. James when his Divine Liturgy is used and during Fasting Periods when the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil is used (no OC I’ve ever attended had those books available in the pews though). The book in the pew is The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom - translated into the language of the people and in the Greek Churches, it also includes the original Greek and usually an English Phonetic of the Greek so people who don’t know Greek can pronounce it with ease.

I would say that it’s more of the equivalent of having a Bible in the pew, the Bible is what it is and also what it is called. Does that make sense?

In the Roman Catholic Church, I think the Missal changes every couple of months and it’s different each time, so it may have another name than what it is? I don’t know, just trying to make sense of it.

I also hold to an odd prejudice - money is “dirty” - and in more ways than one. It gets passed back and forth from person to person and you don’t know who has touched it, so there’s the health/germ factor on top of the “love of money is the root of all evil”. I know… weird and hard to explain, but may give you an insight into my reactions.

Thank you for that insight Plus would it be fair to say that you coming from a Roman Catholic background, you’re used to people receiving Communion in the hand - which if they just touched germ ridden dirty money - would be really yucky! Orthodox received Holy Eucharist on a spoon, so that possibility of transfering any germs onto the Eucharist & then into your mouth don’t apply.

 

[John_Larocque]

I don’t receive communion in the hand, while I don’t count myself among the SSPX/Remant crowd (nor some of their pre-Vatican II takes on Catholic theology), I am strongly sympathetic to those opposed to post-1969 Vatican II liturgical innovations. As a result, I have always had an estranged relationship with the Catholic church.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I don’t receive communion in the hand, while I don’t count myself among the SSPX/Remant crowd (nor some of their pre-Vatican II takes on Catholic theology), I am strongly sympathetic to those opposed to post-1969 Vatican II liturgical innovations. As a result, I have always had an estranged relationship with the Catholic church.

I didn’t mean to imply that you personally received the Eucharist in the hand - I know that it is a personal choice for each Catholic to decide, but that perhaps you knowing that it is a common practice (in the Catholic Church) it may have added to your yuck-yuck feelings about the tithing occuring before receiving Holy Eucharist at the Orthodox Church you visited - with money being ‘dirty’ and all…that you may have forgotten or not known that Orthodox Christians received the Most Holy Eucharist on a spoon - like infants, we are spoon fed by our Father aka the Priest (& only the priest).

I did not mean any offense

 

[John_Larocque]

I didn’t mean to imply that you personally received the Eucharist in the hand - I know that it is a personal choice for each Catholic to decide, but that perhaps you knowing that it is a common practice (in the Catholic Church) it may have added to your yuck-yuck feelings about the tithing occuring before receiving Holy Eucharist at the Orthodox Church you visited - with money being ‘dirty’ and all…that you may have forgotten or not known that Orthodox Christians received the Most Holy Eucharist on a spoon - like infants, we are spoon fed by our Father aka the Priest (& only the priest).

I’ve actually spent time in both Eastern-rite Catholic and Orthodox Churches (and have received communion in the former), so I’ve seen this mode of reception personally.

It’s interesting. I remember reading somewhere that communion on the sppon was introduced - what? - at least 1200 years ago? Until then, people drank from the cup and received communion in the hand in the East. (Fr. Meyendorff made a reference to this in Byzantine Theology). There’s ample evidence this was the norm in the Western Church for centuries. But we know that in the West, they introduced unleavened bread and communion under one kind for the laity. The whole thing is amusing when Catholic modernists were droning on about returnign to the ancient practice of communion in the hand, they leave out a return to leavened bread. They also conveniently disrespect the fact that East and West abandonned the practice of communion in the hand.

This really isn’t a big deal for those in the Byzantine-Rite (ECC or EO) because they didn’t have a modernist movement that wanted to “return” to the past and abandon the spoon, but the Catholic experience with this is quite sad… They weren’t interested in returnin to any ancient tradition. Things such as communion in the hand and Mass Facing the People (introduced by liberal bishops in Europe and elsewhere) were all about altering the Latin Rite to make Catholics more resemble Protestants.

( At the moment, for various reasons, I have an aesthetic preference for Slavonic over Greek. )