Modesty According to Who? (about Sin of Lust)

[francisca]

Your comments are completely of the world and void of the spiritual. I’ve not let any one tell me how to dress since the age of six, but the Spirit directs me internally with regards to modesty. I can dress fashionably and be attractive without violating modesty by showing skin because I hear His voice and by being obedient to His signal grace, I can embrace both modesty and chastity. BTW, as a Catholic, I believe the “moralists” are the hierarchy of the Church who infallibly guide us in moral matters!

My message is the church should not give message that woman must dress certain way in order that she be worthy. As I have said many times I do not mind to practice modesty, but not because of the church teach me that if otherwise, I will become unworthy. To do so the church has fallen from the teaching that we are the children of Sara, the free woman and not Hagar, the slave woman. Because the church itself is a feminine figure, and she is the one whom God (the masculine figure) love. If you read Song of Songs, the whole book speak about how the king is attracted to a feminine figure because of her beauty and all of the adornments she wear. The king represent God and the feminine figure is the church.

The beauty of a woman is not only physical, in fact that fades quickly. I would say her inner beauty and strength of character is the more meaningful and what will last forever.

I agree, no issue about this. Not my focus in this discussion.

But I certainly don’t do it to attract anyone, nor am I worried about my Christian husband being tempted by the competition.

Yes, female show off beauty because of their nature, not necessarily that they are hunting for sex : not as vulgar as being the prejudices in the society. One may worry about her husband because of society value imply prejudices against woman being vulgar and aggressive in their intention to look good. This vulgar picture of woman is painted by sex industries and now has haunt our men so that they become slave of lust. For example: “a prostitute aggressively chase a man” paint a picture that woman is hungry of sex. The truth is, she is a single parent desperate for money, not for sex. No woman enjoys become sex worker. Yet men of lust believe that women sexuality is just as aggressive as men’s. This picture of female figure but with aggressive sexuality is seen by society as dangerous and harmful. But this is only a misrepresentation of woman sexuality. The truth is, its all about business to sell woman.

If the church say that only certain dress makes a woman worthy, this teaching will only agree with the false interpretation of woman. The good interpretation of woman : woman should be given freedom to express herself as much as man, but in her own feminine way, without prejudice. In this way man will learn to respect and love her as a subject. This is important, because what makes the difference between innocent sexual attraction and lust : Innocent sex see the woman as a subject (to respect and love her as a person who has her own way to express herself), while lust treat woman as a soul-less body (her will doesn’t matter). The first one set the woman free, the second one makes her slave.

 

[francisca]

By the way, the answer of my question : who can chop down the big tree of sex industry?

The answer is : each and every man who decide not to ever buy their product/ services. If you guys say no to sex industry, you don’t contribute to it’s growth, and you may contribute in saving one or two women’s life. Just like any other business, sex industry will not prosper without abundance of customers. If they are less prosper, they will recruit less women.

 

[Heliotropium]

By the way, the answer of my question : who can chop down the big tree of sex industry?

The answer is : each and every man who decide not to ever buy their product/ services. If you guys say no to sex industry, you don’t contribute to it’s growth, and you may contribute in saving one or two women’s life. Just like any other business, sex industry will not prosper without abundance of customers. If they are less prosper, they will recruit less women.

I love how you blame men for the sex industry. I could use your same logic and blame women and say “if you women would just be strong and not get into the porn business then the men wouldnt have anything to use and therefore sell. Must be the womens fault!”

Yet I wont say this because thats a stupid thing to say. Its both sexes working together in the porn industry and its both sexes buying this ****.! It takes two to tango francisca and both men and women are responcible.

 

[francisca]

I love how you blame men for the sex industry.

It’s a fact that behind sex industry are men. The product and services are for men. Sex industry customers are men. The business is run using money that comes from men’s pocket.

I could use your same logic and blame women and say “if you women would just be strong and not get into the porn business then the men wouldnt have anything to use and therefore sell. Must be the womens fault!”

Many women in sex industry are victims. Guys of this industry make all kinds of “arrangements” to hunt and trap women with economy desperation.

Yet I wont say this because thats a stupid thing to say. Its both sexes working together in the porn industry and its both sexes buying this ****.! It takes two to tango francisca and both men and women are responcible.

Porn is a business of imagination. As I always say man and woman are sex subject, so you don’t be surprise that some woman may buy porn too, may be out of curiosity or just imagining things, just like men. The difference is, the effect after watching porn, woman cannot rape men, but men can rape woman. Men’s sexuality can do all kind’s of harmful things to woman.

You are saying that women should not lay herself bare, that’s OK. But what I’m saying : even if she does, in doing so, woman cannot rape you. You still have a choice to look away and leave.

After you left, in your sane mind you can decide that porn, in the end is a big business. People do all kinds of things for business. It doesn’t necessarily represent woman sexuality. It’s just business.

 

[tonyrey]

The difference is, the effect after watching porn, woman cannot rape men, but men can rape woman. Men’s sexuality can do all kinds of harmful things to woman.

Women cannot rape men physically but they can harm them and rape them mentally! Sexual perversity is not unknown among the fair sex. Some of the worst beasts in Belsen were female…

 

[francisca]

Women cannot rape men physically but they can harm them and rape them mentally!

Men can rape woman mentally also : example with the porn sites those men set up. But woman cannot trap men into prostitution.

Sexual perversity is not unknown among the fair sex.

Godly wisdom can crack the most evil mind.

Some of the worst beasts in Belsen were female…

I just surf wiki, Belsen is a Nazi concentration camp in northern west of Germany. Your point is…?

 

[Crumpy]

I like the approach of Judaism towards a lot subjects, because the rabbis and other learned people are respected.

They may deal with things in the abstract, but they also deal with things in the very concrete here and now.

Now, yes,Jesus was not satisfied with having men heap burdens on other men, like with silly rules, but…

In many Jewish congregations, men are segregated from women during worship so as the women are not directly a distraction from the men during prayer. So, it’s not even the type of clothing which is the issue, but just even the presence of women can distract men to sin.

You will notice on those tv clips of muslims at prayer, that the women are not present, and that there are just men bowing over.

I recently read a rule that a man was not supposed to follow a woman over a bridge, to avoid the sinful desire and coveting that may result from that.

In this thread, people are arguing to decide where to draw the line. Well, first of all, the “line” has to be drawn in everybody’s MIND. A man should not stare at a woman and decide if this is an occasion of lust. There’s already lust if he’s staring at a woman.

I can’t prove this, but I believe that God suffers from our sins. Jesus suffered in his passion and n the cross. I think the question is resolved beyond all doubt.

We need to live our faith, which sees all people as made in the image of God, and we must be respectful of that, and just eliminate the predatory mentality of turning everything into sex.

 

[francisca]

Now, yes,Jesus was not satisfied with having men heap burdens on other men, like with silly rules, but…

In many Jewish congregations, men are segregated from women during worship so as the women are not directly a distraction from the men during prayer. So, it’s not even the type of clothing which is the issue, but just even the presence of women can distract men to sin.

Yes. They practice this according the law of Moses. Men are separated from women just as God is separated from sinful people. In the past, when they still had their temple, they separated “holy of holies” with a veil from the outer part of the temple. When a man read the word of God, he has to wear veil (head cover). In the presence of God man has to wear head cover. This head cover also signify Gods presence but also signify the separation from Him.

According to the gospel, the veil that separated holy of holies from the outer court was torn from top to bottom, at the time of Jesus death. This signify that after Jesus sacrifice on the cross, there is no more separation between God and man, because Jesus has fulfilled the law.

St. Paul in his epistle to the corinthians say that man should not wear any veil anymore even as he read the word of God. I believe that the corinthians then asked him whether woman should also take off her veil. In the end he decided that the church does not have such custom. (1Cor 11:1-16)

You will notice on those tv clips of muslims at prayer, that the women are not present, and that there are just men bowing over.

I recently read a rule that a man was not supposed to follow a woman over a bridge, to avoid the sinful desire and coveting that may result from that.

Yes. Some of muslim tradition imitate judaism, even though they do not really know why. Muslim has the teaching of “aurat”, registering all woman’s body parts those can only be seen by her “muhrim” (her lawful husband), and also register those which are “not aurat” are the body parts can be seen by all.

A man should not stare at a woman and decide if this is an occasion of lust. There’s already lust if he’s staring at a woman.

Yes.
If one stare at woman and think “look why her dress is so lusty”, then the person who think that way commit lust even as he is having such thought.

Therefore we cannot stop lust thoughts by talking about woman’s dress, because in doing so, we imply woman’s body as the object covered by the dress.

 

[francisca]

My next question :

If there is a woman dressing so very very lusty, what can man do about her according Jesus teaching ?

Please choose one correct answer from these options:

1. Man can judge her, or
2. Man can judge her, only if he is holy (without sin).

Please read the story about “adulterous woman being brought to Jesus presence” as your reference.

 

[Heliotropium]

Wow your posts francisca amaze me…they truly do. Women cannot rape men? Really? Are you serious?

The reality is men can be rape, have been raped, can be abused, have been abused, and can be taken advantage of and have been taken advantage of. You’re reasoning is ridiculous!

 

[francisca]

Jesus told the men who brought to his presence the adulterous woman, “whoever is without sin may throw the first stone”

My last questions :

Why can’t men of lust judge woman of lust?

If men often have prejudice about women’s intention to look good, then

What motivation can a “lusty” man possibly have in judging an “allegedly lusty” woman?

Clue : the answer to the last question is four letters, beginning with a big L end with a t.

God bless you all.