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Eucharisted
Guest
Islamic sites tend to use pseudoscience. For example, the site you linked to. The fact that men lust after naked women is common knowledge, and it is not - as the article tempts to show - reason to dress in a cultural dress for modesty. Yes, the clothing which Muslim women is cultural. It is not universally modest, it is not the standard of modesty, and it is not - as some Muslims believe - better than Western dress. Modesty in clothing is not only in what you wear but in how you respond to clothing. That is why even women who wear the traditional Muslim garb get raped - but Muslims won’t tell you this. If you want clothing that is modest, I suggest following my DORITOS plan:
- Dignity. Dress in a way that shows your dignity and dose not harm the dignity of others.
- Order. Dress in a way that will preserve order in your town, rather than cause scandal.
- Reverence. Dress in a way that shows your love for God, who is everywhere and in everything.
- Indulgence. Dress in a way that will be consoling for you, not too tight or uncomfortable.
- Tolerance. Dress in a way that shows you are tolerant of others, not intolerant toward religion, race, etc.
- Offering. Dress in a way that shows you are willing to make sacrifices, that you live by the Will of God.
- Subsidy. Dress in a way that, when you grow too big for your clothing, you can give them to the needy.
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eichenb2
Guest
Obviously, though, a society should not put woman away, never to be seen or heard. Given this type of scientific proof that men and women are different, Christians ought to act in accord with this difference. I see it as a balance between people taking personal responsibility for the way they dress and taking responsibility for their eyes and where they wonder. Having previous been a Muslim, I find it troubling that many (maybe most) Catholics do not concern themselves with dressing modestly. Catholics are called to be Holy, but unlike protestantism, this is not something that comes about through some mysterious “forensic justification”. Or, as St. Thomas Aquinas said, it you want to be a saint…will it! By the way, ladies, one need not look “frumpy” to be modest. That is is my wife’s words.
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Florida_mom
Guest
"That is why even women who wear the traditional Muslim garb get raped "
This is unfair to Muslim women.
Men rape not for lust or attraction, but for control and the “turn on” of the crime itself and for their victim. It is a crime of power and has little to do with the clothing the woman was wearing.
So it is true that Muslim women get raped as do Nuns.
But there isn’t a saint out there who is attracted to the sexual experience with the Nun–but rather a heinous criminal who lusts at the power of stealing the chastity of that nun. The habit is just his clue that he got the right gal.
This is unfair to Muslim women.
Men rape not for lust or attraction, but for control and the “turn on” of the crime itself and for their victim. It is a crime of power and has little to do with the clothing the woman was wearing.
So it is true that Muslim women get raped as do Nuns.
But there isn’t a saint out there who is attracted to the sexual experience with the Nun–but rather a heinous criminal who lusts at the power of stealing the chastity of that nun. The habit is just his clue that he got the right gal.
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eichenb2
Guest
Overall, I cannot disagre with your DORITOS advise.
I will, however, take some exception with some of your other comments.
- The article I posted was not Muslim “pseudoscience”. This was study done by non-Muslims and Muslims (apparently) and the article was discussing the the results from the Islamic perspective. The premise is that a man sees a woman who dresses more provacitively as a more of a sexual object. This is not, as they say, rocket science. I am not sure why you had to be so negative.
- Islam, despite your apparent misunderstanding, advocate a purely cultural dress. As a former Muslim, I can say that orthodox sunni Islam calls for men and women to dress modesty in a way that respects the differences bewteen men and women and the natural proclivity of them to be attracted to each other. There is a W I D E variety of cultural dress and standards in the Muslim world. For example, look at the diffence between Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, and Senegal (all predominantly Muslim).
- I am not suggesting that the dress of a Muslim woman is the standard of modesty. But I ask…are women and men (Muslim or Christian) still biologically the same?..All men and women not universally attracted to the other (notwithstanding the “gay right” apologists)?..Did not Christ and St. Paul say that a Christian should not be a stumbling block for others?
- I did not and the article did not say that by wearing “traditional Muslim” clothes a woman would not get raped! That is simply non-sensical and I find it surprising that you would glean that from the article. Unless, of course, you are reading into the article, preconcieved notions. Orthodox Islam does NOT teach that outward comformity to Shariah will make the world perfect; despite what some Muslims say.
- You may have a problem with seeing a truth in Islam. The Catholic Church does not, though. I am sick and tired of religious people (of whatever strip) not respecting each other and thier teachings. I took the article to mean the following:
- Modesty is a virtue and should manifest itself in how we dress, for men or women.
- Men and Women are different and that is a good thing.
- Original sin is real and original
- People who believe these things need to act on them, charitable
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eichenb2
Guest
"That is why even women who wear the traditional Muslim garb get raped "
This is unfair to Muslim women.
Men rape not for lust or attraction, but for control and the “turn on” of the crime itself and for their victim. It is a crime of power and has little to do with the clothing the woman was wearing.
So it is true that Muslim women get raped as do Nuns.
But there isn’t a saint out there who is attracted to the sexual experience with the Nun–but rather a heinous criminal who lusts at the power of stealing the chastity of that nun. The habit is just his clue that he got the right gal.
F
Florida_mom
Guest
Now for my comments on the article–I find it interestin that they say that muslim women feel more protected in the hijab.
I met a Christian woman at a homeschooling convention–she is a fascinating speaker and dresses extremely modest.
Her entire body is covered except for her face. She wears long sleeves, shirt buttoned as high as it will go to her neck (no cleavage). Her skirt only goes between mid-calf and her ankles and she has stockings beneath that. She also wears a scarf on her head as it has a specific name, but I forget. It is not a hijab though. It just wraps the long hair and is secured with bobby pins.
Her comments were similar to these Muslim women and I had no doubt but trust her.
Think about it–when you have very modest folks–they do feel more safe covered up EVEN IF it is not within their culture to do that. I.e.–I won’t wear a bikini. I tried in my younger school age days, but I am not confortable wearing “bra and panties” as a swim ensemble. I do feel “safer” in a one piece.
Now whether or not that safety is real safety, I cannot tell you. But it is a matter of comfort.
For muslim women reared in wearing a hijab–sure they would feel safer.
And I don’t have to be a muslim to understand the importance of what it means for a female to be scantily clad. She just cannot be taken seriously–ever.
As for quotes within the article:
The women I mention in the beginning who is Christian and wears a scarf head/hair covering–would provide testimony that she to is doing it out of obedience to God and that she has similar feelings about how it protects her and that she garners more “gentleman” respect that she had from men in public prior to wearing the covering.
It is very unChristian to devalue any woman or judge her as being naive or whatever in their beliefs and perceptions.
Note that the muslim woman states:
I have to say that the article provided more insight to the justifications for the hijab especially when I tie it to the Christian woman whom I met last year who also dresses as she does and covers her hair for quite similar reasons of respect.
I met a Christian woman at a homeschooling convention–she is a fascinating speaker and dresses extremely modest.
Her entire body is covered except for her face. She wears long sleeves, shirt buttoned as high as it will go to her neck (no cleavage). Her skirt only goes between mid-calf and her ankles and she has stockings beneath that. She also wears a scarf on her head as it has a specific name, but I forget. It is not a hijab though. It just wraps the long hair and is secured with bobby pins.
Her comments were similar to these Muslim women and I had no doubt but trust her.
Think about it–when you have very modest folks–they do feel more safe covered up EVEN IF it is not within their culture to do that. I.e.–I won’t wear a bikini. I tried in my younger school age days, but I am not confortable wearing “bra and panties” as a swim ensemble. I do feel “safer” in a one piece.
Now whether or not that safety is real safety, I cannot tell you. But it is a matter of comfort.
For muslim women reared in wearing a hijab–sure they would feel safer.
And I don’t have to be a muslim to understand the importance of what it means for a female to be scantily clad. She just cannot be taken seriously–ever.
As for quotes within the article:
I have to say that I dress the way that i do for similar reasons. I won’t go so far as a hijab as that isn’t ordinary in my area anyway, but it is unfair to devalue this woman’s statement when it is very true that men check women out and if she doesn’t want that, the hijab protects her from that.
The women I mention in the beginning who is Christian and wears a scarf head/hair covering–would provide testimony that she to is doing it out of obedience to God and that she has similar feelings about how it protects her and that she garners more “gentleman” respect that she had from men in public prior to wearing the covering.
It is very unChristian to devalue any woman or judge her as being naive or whatever in their beliefs and perceptions.
Note that the muslim woman states:
It is injustice to judge the article and disregard that they do consider that they are not immune to being victims due to the hijab.
I have to say that the article provided more insight to the justifications for the hijab especially when I tie it to the Christian woman whom I met last year who also dresses as she does and covers her hair for quite similar reasons of respect.
F
Florida_mom
Guest
centurionministry.org/body/head-covering.asp
Interesting link on Christian head coverings and scripture.
It should be noted that the other found no scriptural reference to wearing them ALL of the time. But their is scriptural basis for even Christian women to covering up as reference to the Lord.
I post it as a point of reference that Muslims are not alone in their thoughts about covering up in reverence to their creator.
Remember that pre-Vatican II, while women did not have to wear a hijab to mass, they did wear a head covering to mass.
Interesting link on Christian head coverings and scripture.
It should be noted that the other found no scriptural reference to wearing them ALL of the time. But their is scriptural basis for even Christian women to covering up as reference to the Lord.
I post it as a point of reference that Muslims are not alone in their thoughts about covering up in reverence to their creator.
Remember that pre-Vatican II, while women did not have to wear a hijab to mass, they did wear a head covering to mass.
F
Florida_mom
Guest
I found another interesting Catholic perspective on head coverings–though this is not in line with the church lest all us uncovered women be denied the eucharist.
But again–covering up is not Muslim-exlusive!
catholicplanet.com/women/headcovering.htm
But again–covering up is not Muslim-exlusive!
catholicplanet.com/women/headcovering.htm
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GraceDK
Guest
Chastity is never stolen."
But there isn’t a saint out there who is attracted to the sexual experience with the Nun–but rather a heinous criminal who lusts at the power of stealing the chastity of that nun. The habit is just his clue that he got the right gal.
Even if someone is no virgin it does not mean they were not chaste before and after they lost their virginity.
Virginity cannot be stolen either.
It can only be given freely.
F
Florida_mom
Guest
Not sure why you feel the need to correct–do you really believe the rapist is checking the Bible or catechism on what they can and cannot take from a woman?
It is simply meant to prove the point that men do not rape just b/c they find a woman attractive. They are very much taking that which is not freely given and in their minds–they have victory over their victim.
G
GraceDK
Guest
Nope. I was simply referring to the Church’s teaching that a virgin, if raped, is still a virgin in the eyes of God. Also, chastity is not something that can be stolen. Chastity is a way of life. You are either chaste at a given time or you are not. A woman, or man for that matter, does not cease to be chaste if someone assaults them sexually.Not sure why you feel the need to correct–do you really believe the rapist is checking the Bible or catechism on what they can and cannot take from a woman?
It is simply meant to prove the point that men do not rape just b/c they find a woman attractive. They are very much taking that which is not freely given and in their minds–they have victory over their victim.
Peace.
S
slyboots
Guest
- Rape is not about sex. Rape is about power.
- Modesty will not protect anyone from someone who just wants power over someone else in almost all cases.
I don’t mean for anyone to stop being modest. Just know that No Muslim woman, no nun, no woman in general is any safer from rape just because she is modestly dressed. In my business ( child welfare) men who want power will even attack a baby or little child. And generally speaking even in a diaper a toddler is an innocent. So it is not the provocation of the clothing or lack of it that motivates rape as a rule.
But please don’t let that keep you from dressing in a non-provocative manner. That was not my point.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
I think it’s quite possible to be a half-naked, very modest Polynesian girl.
It is true that men tend to be more directly visually stimulated, but it seems to be that there are a few things being forgotten. One is that what is considered stimulating, in humans, tends to be a learned thing. Obvious sexual differences are the focus in many cultures, but not always. In cultures where women go topless, for example, the breasts are not a sexual cue for men. So in such a culture, it seems to me that covering the breasts as a sign of modestly is silly - like covering the nose.
The other is that women are also visually stimulated, within a larger context of knowing a person, knowing about him, or whatever. That’s why teenage girls spend so much time learning all about their celebrity crushes, before putting their posters on the wall. But walking around in real life, as opposed to viewing images in a lab, is just the kind of context women need. Going about daily life with the people around her can provide the context to make the men she sees around her an object of sexual attraction, visually speaking. So in practice, I’m not sure that the difference is as great as one might think.
It is true that men tend to be more directly visually stimulated, but it seems to be that there are a few things being forgotten. One is that what is considered stimulating, in humans, tends to be a learned thing. Obvious sexual differences are the focus in many cultures, but not always. In cultures where women go topless, for example, the breasts are not a sexual cue for men. So in such a culture, it seems to me that covering the breasts as a sign of modestly is silly - like covering the nose.
The other is that women are also visually stimulated, within a larger context of knowing a person, knowing about him, or whatever. That’s why teenage girls spend so much time learning all about their celebrity crushes, before putting their posters on the wall. But walking around in real life, as opposed to viewing images in a lab, is just the kind of context women need. Going about daily life with the people around her can provide the context to make the men she sees around her an object of sexual attraction, visually speaking. So in practice, I’m not sure that the difference is as great as one might think.
D
Detales
Guest
Modesty is in the eye of the beholder, and is a matter of maturity. A woman who is “advertising” will be an annoyance to a man who is maturely commited, and a spider to the one who hasn’t been taught the governance of energy.
Having some interest in the matter, since both my sisters have been raped, I must conclude from their experience and research on that crime, that it is for the most part, lust used as a weapon of anger. It is also a gross indicator of lack of self-knowledge and a sociopathic act, as is all immoraltiy to some degree or other.
Modesty is as well culturally relative, and we tend to value certain appearances as conforming to our own norm of it or not. This goes far beyond the consciouss level. As someone said, the half nude aborigenee, cosmetically enhanced, even, male or female, is modest in context, and in their own mind, even if they are downtown Deluth in their native state. Modesty is in the eye of the beholder, and Miss Grundy is the keeper of her own standard projected on to society. Thus one can navigate any society or presentation of state of dress impecably and with the elagance worthy of spiritual maturity.
The genders have specific chemistry to deal with as well, for good reason. And as was stated before, it is a matter of individual maturity, training, and the governance of energy that makes for societal peace or disturbance. And the Church itself has a reputation for distorting sexual values in its children one way or another. I myself was seriously counseled for being overly scrupulous in matters related to sexual awareness. The whole matter of denial and hyperawareness of temptation is but a drawing of attention to sexuality over good sense. But I was raised in a Catholic school taught by Irish imigrant nuns, and the joke was that the girls became nuns or whores, and the guys priests or gangsters. Too much truth in that. For more (name removed by moderator)ut on that idea, watch a documentary called Women in Black.
It might be useful to note, as well, that the sexes seem to have an inate fear and ignorance of the energy of the other. This result is awkwardness and misunderstanding aggrevated by lack of communication. This evidences itself in the huge fear and denial surrounding the dynamics of sex education. Aything related to sex energy tends to be suspect and clothed in the tradion of secret ignornace. Try sometime to collect stories of how your Catholic or christianist friends were introduced to the “birds and the bees.” You might be tempted to write a book on the commedy of errors, if you are not steeped in ti yourself.
As for the chemistry aspect, that is what has to be trained into maturity in the realm of self awareness relative to the value of others. “Gnothi Seauton,” “Know thySelf” is not a frivolous dictum, but a door to an invaluable knowledge, and the key to the Golden Rules.
Having some interest in the matter, since both my sisters have been raped, I must conclude from their experience and research on that crime, that it is for the most part, lust used as a weapon of anger. It is also a gross indicator of lack of self-knowledge and a sociopathic act, as is all immoraltiy to some degree or other.
Modesty is as well culturally relative, and we tend to value certain appearances as conforming to our own norm of it or not. This goes far beyond the consciouss level. As someone said, the half nude aborigenee, cosmetically enhanced, even, male or female, is modest in context, and in their own mind, even if they are downtown Deluth in their native state. Modesty is in the eye of the beholder, and Miss Grundy is the keeper of her own standard projected on to society. Thus one can navigate any society or presentation of state of dress impecably and with the elagance worthy of spiritual maturity.
The genders have specific chemistry to deal with as well, for good reason. And as was stated before, it is a matter of individual maturity, training, and the governance of energy that makes for societal peace or disturbance. And the Church itself has a reputation for distorting sexual values in its children one way or another. I myself was seriously counseled for being overly scrupulous in matters related to sexual awareness. The whole matter of denial and hyperawareness of temptation is but a drawing of attention to sexuality over good sense. But I was raised in a Catholic school taught by Irish imigrant nuns, and the joke was that the girls became nuns or whores, and the guys priests or gangsters. Too much truth in that. For more (name removed by moderator)ut on that idea, watch a documentary called Women in Black.
It might be useful to note, as well, that the sexes seem to have an inate fear and ignorance of the energy of the other. This result is awkwardness and misunderstanding aggrevated by lack of communication. This evidences itself in the huge fear and denial surrounding the dynamics of sex education. Aything related to sex energy tends to be suspect and clothed in the tradion of secret ignornace. Try sometime to collect stories of how your Catholic or christianist friends were introduced to the “birds and the bees.” You might be tempted to write a book on the commedy of errors, if you are not steeped in ti yourself.
As for the chemistry aspect, that is what has to be trained into maturity in the realm of self awareness relative to the value of others. “Gnothi Seauton,” “Know thySelf” is not a frivolous dictum, but a door to an invaluable knowledge, and the key to the Golden Rules.
G
GraceDK
Guest
In my own country I have seen that its the men whose women cover up most - the arabs - who in generel respect women least.
B
Bluegoat
Guest
Certianly sometimes people use the excuse of modesty to practice power over others, for example over a particular sex. Clothing has also been used to enforce class distinctions. And these things and modestly can easily become mixed up, and it’s difficult to separate them until there is a change in attitude. But I think it is also important to remember that they are indeed separate issues, and one way is to recall that some cultures which use very little in the way of clothing have also had contempt for women. They simply express it differently.
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