Modesty

  • Thread starter Thread starter AveMaria12
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Quote from Ashley E. McGuire, editor-in-chief of AltCatholicah - quoted from altcatholicah.com/altcatol/a/b/mca/4360/ :

MODESTY AT MASS
A Case for a Catholic Dress Code

today, the Church in America is a part of a culture where women like to dress like prostitutes, and men like to dress like gangsters and personal trainers.

So I would like to propose that while the Church is changing the liturgy it add another change to the docket: attire at Mass.

The way many people dress to Mass is completely offensive. Strapless tops, cleavage, skirts that hardly cover the derriere, shorts, tracksuits, cut-offs. Tank tops. Midriffs. Minis. How this became acceptable is a mystery. How to change it, is not.

A simple solution could restore churches everywhere to basic dignity: a dress code. Think this is radical? It’s not. The Vatican has one. The Vatican prohibits anyone from entering who is wearing:

· Shorts/skirts above the knee
· Sleeveless shirts
· Shirts exposing the navel
· Shirts for women that expose cleavage

Why don’t all Catholic churches have the same standards? It is the same Jesus Christ present in the tabernacle. It is the same discipleship the priests share with the pope. The human beings on their knees are the same people trying to live lives of holiness and chastity in a world that works to undermine them at every turn.

A Catholic dress code could be instituted with a relatively simple, three-step action plan:

See more at the link given above.

So, are now both Father Dominic Mary, and Ashley E. McGuire, editor-in-chief of AltCatholicah, guilty of something? Just because they both say that there are women out there who dress like prostitutes?

I suggest we pay attention to both Fr. Dominic Mary, and Ashley E. McGuire, because they both give specific advice regarding how to dress. Moreover, in the case of Father Dominic Mary, he is our spiritual father (that’s why priests are called “Father”), and we really have a duty to respect and obey him as we would obey a parent. See the 4th commandment: Respect thy Father and thy Mother.
 
TerryJT said:
I don’t mind sermons about modesty, IF they are even handed. However-when a priest refers to women “dressed like prostitutes”-I think he took it a bit too far. Is he not guilty of the very thing he is preaching against? (Not recognizing the dignity of another human being, even one you have pre judged as looking like a sex worker?)

Really? …barely 5-6 posts in on this topic, and already Violence against women is expressed…

Seriously-this topic does need to be addressed to BOTH men and women…but when it quickly descends in to the above…I am not surprised that some would take issue with it. Why is modestly almost always tangled up with dehumanizing name calling, and threats of violence towards women?

Physician Heal Thyself.
Click to expand...
40.png
TerryJT:
Re: Modesty
Quote:
All the same but lessens the impact of the image, no?
Not at all-and that is the point…calling women by any of those names, is meant to demean, abuse, and insult.

I doubt that 8yr old school girl would have felt any less abused had she been spit on and called a harlot instead of a prostitute.

Calling all women-You are welcome ay my Parish, and my pastor won’t call you any names.

He just wants you to meet Jesus.

TerryJT <---------------wondering if females of future generations will ever live in a world where men won’t use religion as an excuse to abuse them.
Yesterday 6:45 pm
Click to expand...
I most certainly agree. Using derogatory language – endorses a culture of violence towards women.
 
I think that it might be harsh for anyone to point out that a particular woman is dressed like a prostitute–if it were done in public, in front of a congregation (for instance). A crack like that–would make the person so embarrassed that they might never feel like coming back. I don’t think that any Christian believes in deliberately offending or publically embarrassing any brother or sister. Having said that–and I’m a woman too–I have seen women dressed in church, stores, etc, who made me wonder in my mind which street corner they had just left. Our society has gotten to the point in trying to be PC that it’s no longer acceptable to call a duck a duck! If we are honest within ourselves, I’m sure that each of us has seen men that we think are dressed like street thugs and women that we think are dressed like “women of the evening” Usually, the ones who take exception to the semantics are the ones with with the problem. To me, if I walk like a duck, quack like a duck and lay eggs like a duck—I just might be a DUCK!
 
I’m unfamiliar with how prostitutes dress so I will refrain from comparing to one. Those of you more familiar with prostitutes than I, do what you must.

I’m a 52 year old man. No spring chicken, no young buck, no rooster on the prowl. But, I’m still a man and it is very distracting to me when attractive women show more than I need to see at church. I’ve seen dresses and skirts so high that I’ve seen a clear view of panties, tops so low that I’ve seen… well, I don’t want to say. Form fitting this and that. When one is trying to be contemplative and prayerful, these are huge distractions.

As for the men, they aren’t much better but that doesn’t distract me. I have no need to see anyone’s bare underarm in church, particularly not a man’s hairy one. I’m not a fan of sandals either because I just think feet are dirty bacteria laden objects.

There is a church near me that does in fact have a dress code. It’s traditionalist and since I’m just getting an understanding of the church where I attend, maybe I’m not quite ready for it.

For the most part, people are going to have to use their own best judgement. It’s clear that some people haven’t much when it comes to judgement. I don’t see your average parish instituting dress codes so this is what we have.
 
Brandall said:
I’m unfamiliar with how prostitutes dress so I will refrain from comparing to one. Those of you more familiar with prostitutes than I, do what you must.
Click to expand...
Yeah, frankly I do speak from experience, because I spent enough time working both as a truck driver and teaching/researching at universities, and I know exactly what I’m talking about, and many female students on university campuses are indistinguishable from truck stop prostitutes, as far as their dresses/outfits go.

Yet, my statement is not meant as a judgment on the human dignities of either truck stop prostitutes, or scantily clad students on university campuses, and frankly if anyone comes here to slander me with that, I will take offense and I will report them to the moderators for slandering me (sorry Brandall this is absolutely not directed to you - I’m just saying that I will not put up with slander and defamation of character from those who are notorious for doing so on this forum - I have been reading these forums long enough and again, I know what I’m talking about).
Starrsmother said:
I think that it might be harsh for anyone to point out that a particular woman is dressed like a prostitute–if it were done in public, in front of a congregation (for instance). A crack like that–would make the person so embarrassed that they might never feel like coming back. I don’t think that any Christian believes in deliberately offending or publically embarrassing any brother or sister. Having said that–and I’m a woman too–I have seen women dressed in church, stores, etc, who made me wonder in my mind which street corner they had just left. Our society has gotten to the point in trying to be PC that it’s no longer acceptable to call a duck a duck! If we are honest within ourselves, I’m sure that each of us has seen men that we think are dressed like street thugs and women that we think are dressed like “women of the evening” Usually, the ones who take exception to the semantics are the ones with with the problem. To me, if I walk like a duck, quack like a duck and lay eggs like a duck—I just might be a DUCK!
Click to expand...
Yes, and Father clearly didn’t address anyone in person about this, he was merely calling a duck a duck. And he was right, by an objective measure. I used to attend the campus church Mass at a private university in the South that charges $40K/year in tuition fees, and many female students were showing every bit as much skin as the truck stop prostitutes, both on the campus and inside the church, during Holy Mass. A fact is a fact, and a duck is a duck. Recently I was on campus of one of the most elite universities of the Mid-West, and I can report exactly the same thing: many female students strolling the campus were indistinguishable from truck stop prostitutes, as far as the outfits they wore. I guess it’s a fashion trend. And it’s an objective fact - I have seen enough female students on university campuses, and I have seen enough prostitutes in truck stops, and I’m merely reporting what I have seen.

And I guess Father Dominic Mary is coming from similar experiences. He has been exposed to plenty of secular life in Chicago and elsewhere, before he became a Franciscan friar. And Father is telling in his sermon that it’s not OK for a woman to attend Holy Mass dressed like a prostitute, and it’s not OK for a man to wear shorts and tank tops to Holy Mass. Well, as far as I am concerned, I have personally seen plenty of the stuff Father is talking about, including men in shorts and tank tops, and women dressed like the prostitutes dress in truck stops, men and women at our most expensive and most elite university campuses, including in the campus church, during Holy Mass. I just don’t see why would be anyone so offended, when Father is talking about an objective reality, and instructing us to dress appropriately for Holy Mass.

But I guess humility and respect are in short supply nowadays. Respect for our spiritual Fathers, the priests, and the humility to listen and learn from their sermons.
 
TerryJT said:
“This woman is dressed like a prostitute” is not a statement of fact-it is simply a matter of opinion, and is frequently used as a way to control, insult and abuse women,.
Click to expand...
Often a matter of opinion, but not always, I would say. Often a mysogynist term, but often an act of charity. Just like how we use the word hypocrite. It can be used as scorn, or as a charitable rebuke. But I do agree that we too often use “prostitute” out of scorn rather than charity. As a matter of fact, the prostitutes I’ve seen are better dressed than what I see in church sometimes.

Sorry to linger on this term for so long…😦
 
OurLadyPray4US,
I have never heard of AltCatholicah-so pulling up a quote from another website really does not impress me. I could pull up hundreds that bad mouth catholicism-What does it prove?

Opinions are like prostitutes-Apparently We all know one right because they are oh so common Mass attenders. :cool:

And no-I don’t owe any priest blind obedience-it is JUST that type of stepford wife clericalism that contributed to the worldwide sexual abuse crises, and the ruining of countless thousands (?millions??) of families and souls in the process.

My pastor I respect-Why? Because I trust him, and I have never heard him speak one word that would lead me to believe he would belittle his sisters in Christ. The priest in the video talks about revealing clothing being about having power over someone. I would counter: So is this much overused and ohh so common “she looks like a prostitute” comment. It is an attempt to control women by threatening them with a degrading label.
Usually, the ones who take exception to the semantics are the ones with with the problem.
Click to expand...
THAT above is another common verbal tactic. If a woman DARES to object to degrading labeling of this type, (sleaze, hooker, tramp, prostitute) she must certainly be one of the labeled.

Yes-I think I will be one with “those women”-because they are you, and me, and my daughters, and my mother and my sisters, depending of course on the opinion and world view of the one who is tossing the stones.
 
I’m wondering what Christ would say about female dress, since, ya know, he sort of hung out with prostitutes. 😉
 
Jesus “hung out” with tax collectors as well as prostitutes, and at the very end of his time here, he hung next to 2 thieves on the cross. He forgave their sins and told them to go and sin no more. He did not sink to their level and become one Himself. Also, if I remember correctly, only one of the thieves accepted what He was saying–and one reviled it. Thus, only one thief was saved.
 
gracepoole said:
I’m wondering what Christ would say about female dress, since, ya know, he sort of hung out with prostitutes. 😉
Click to expand...
He would probably do what our Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI did in the Vatican - institute a dress code. Everyone, including prostitutes, can visit the Vatican and have an audience with the Pope, but nobody is allowed to set foot in Vatican City unless they are dressed properly.

The first crack-down on immodest dress originated from Pope John Paul II around the year 2000, who had it enforced on St. Peter’s Square and in the churches of Vatican City. However more recently in 2010, Pope Benedict extended the enforcement of the same dress code to the whole of Vatican City, including the post office and pharmacy. In other words, no one is allowed to set foot anywhere in Vatican City, unless they have their shoulders and knees covered (as well as no cleavage, no midriffs exposed).

In addition to Vatican City, the same dress code applies to the hundreds of Catholic churches in the city of Rome, which are under the direct authority of the Pope, since the Pope is the Bishop of Rome. Everyone, including prostitutes, are welcome to visit the churches of Rome, but no one, be they prostitutes or university students, is allowed to enter unless they first make sure to be properly attired (shoulders covered, knees covered, no bare midriffs, no cleavage).

Quote from saintpetersbasilica.org/touristinfo.htm :

Dress Code

The Dress Code is strictly enforced at St. Peter’s Basilica. No shorts, bare shoulders or miniskirts. This applies to both men and women. Even if you get through security, you will be turned away by the attendants at the door. On a hot summer day, I’ve seen dozens of men in shorts turned away.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Quote from dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-1298624/Vatican-tourists-face-ban-skimpy-clothes.html :

Vatican tourists told to cover up or face ban over skimpy clothes
By TRAVELMAIL REPORTER
UPDATED: 10:28 EST, 30 July 2010

The Vatican has imposed a crack-down on tourists’ clothing and imposed a dress-code more commonly associated with the Royal Enclosure at Ascot.
‘Inappropriately dressed’ visitors to the Holy City have been told to cover up by Swiss Guards or face a ban.
Those entering St Peter’s Basilica have long been required to dress modestly.
But since early this week the dress-code has been extended to St Peter’s Square, which marks the border between the city state and Rome.

The Vatican has imposed a strict dress-code on tourists banning bare shoulders, skirts above the knee and shorts

From this point, shorts skirts and bare shoulders are not allowed.
The guards drew aside men in shorts and women with uncovered shoulders and short skirts to tell them that they were not dressed properly.
Some female visitors were obliged to buy shawls and scarves from nearby hawkers, while men had to wander off to the nearest shops to buy long trousers.
 
Starrsmother said:
Jesus “hung out” with tax collectors as well as prostitutes, and at the very end of his time here, he hung next to 2 thieves on the cross. He forgave their sins and told them to go and sin no more. He did not sink to their level and become one Himself. Also, if I remember correctly, only one of the thieves accepted what He was saying–and one reviled it. Thus, only one thief was saved.
Click to expand...
:sad_yes:

That’s a sober reminder that we can lose our salvation if we fail to listen to Christ, and to the Bishops and Priests who are his representatives. Christ said, “He who hears you, hears me”. That’s the kind of authority Christ gave to our pastors (Pope, Bishops, Priests) and on the day of judgment, we will be held accountable for having had obeyed/disobeyed their teachings and measures of Church discipline.
 
OurLadyPray4US said:
He would probably do what our Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI did in the Vatican - institute a dress code. Everyone, including prostitutes, can visit the Vatican and have an audience with the Pope, but nobody is allowed to set foot in Vatican City unless they are dressed properly.
Click to expand...
I think I’ve already stated what I think about this same sort of thing? :confused:
 
Excellent thread. Is the tide turning? We can only hope!

Linus2nd
 
The way I explain modesty to 7th grade CCD class is-

How you dress sends a message to the people around you. It is a statement to others of what you think is important about yourself, what you want to emphasize. As well as your attitude about the event or activity you are participating in. Yeah, yeah, we shouldn’t judge others by appearances, however it is a natural human reaction and many folks take advantage of it. We do tend to notice if folks are at least well-groomed and clean.

Women actually tend to be more sensitive/aware of this than men. Most are well aware of their clothes sending a message. For a 7th graders consideration-- what message do you want to send? Do you want to be viewed as a physical object on display? Do you want those looking at you to perceive that you think your body is what is important about you? Do you want them to perceive that you have pride in yourself as a person? Do you want them to focus on your head/face/eyes and think of you as an equal to communicate with?

You can think of various occupations and expectations of appearance:

Car salesmen assess their client’s appearances in judging what they can afford (don’t dress to the nines and look like you can afford a Mercedes if you’re looking for an econo-box!)

Lawyers and professionals dress a certain way to gain your trust. Match your expectations.

Con-men do the same. They’re good at dressing the part to gain your Confidence (the crucial part of con-men).

I think there is a difference between dressing modestly and dressing respectfully. That is, many men go to church and are certainly dressed modestly but not in a manner indicating a respect for or appreciation for the solemnity of the mass. (I am absolutely as guilty of this as the next person at times).

As a last note, when I served as an altar boy, there was a woman who daily attended the 06:30 mass. She always wore a long overcoat, winter/spring/summer/fall. I found out fairly quickly that it was because she wore her pajamas to mass. She would roll up her pajama pants legs so they were covered by the overcoat, but occasionally one or the other leg would unroll as she walked to/from communion. No idea whether that was disrespectful or immodest- but I sincerely admired her devotion at coming to mass that early every day (at least every day I ever served at the early mass).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top