Moment of Reckoning on Liturgical Abuses

[Marian_Carroll]

GENERAL REMINDER:

Folks: the question asked in initiating this thread was:

What would be the best way to challange this man without damaging my relationship with my pastor?

Those wishing to discuss other matters should feel free to initiate a thread on the topic of their choice in the appropriate forum or join one already in progress.

Those who prefer Traditional Liturgy discussions are welcome to post here: forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=102

Thanks once again for your help!

 

[Red_Meg]

…Back to the original topic.

My advice, for what it’s worth, would be to set up a private meeting ASAP with your pastor. He’s the “good guy,” and needs to know you’re on his side, and not attacking him. Show up with your documentation in hand, and explain your concerns about what the “expert” is likely to propose, contrary to express statements from the Pope himself. Without saying it in such crass terms, the situation sounds like an orthodox pastor, an orthodox bishop, and a liturgical loose cannon in between. I’d think enlisting the pastor’s support, and engendering his legitimately protective feelings towards his flock would go a long way. If he came to the meeting as well, forearmed and forewarned, it could make more of an impact…

Good luck, and no matter what, don’t forget to keep praying to the Holy Spirit!!!

Margaret

 

[sosayi1960]

I mean development in the way that conducting the Mass on an altar instead of a rock, or worshipping in an ornate Church instead of a catacomb.

These days it would be…
Develop as in bring out the truth and enrich the faith, more accurate, beautiful statues, better more articulate homilies, more ornate, tasteful and beautiful Churches, give the best to God to honor God.

I am pretty sure liberal covers it, it would be a slur if the person was faithful to the Church and cared about preserving truth. But when truth is dependent upon perspective then the person is exhibiting liberal views and should be denounced and labeled.

I have no problem calling a spade a spade.

God Bless
Scylla

I just had a thought, perhaps, God wants to deal with some anger issues. Blasts other people is certainly not what our Lord taught.
As long as God is worshiped. The people are the church. Not some old stuffy building. The early Christians worshiped God in tombs. It’s not where God is worshiped. It’s the fact he IS worshiped. Lighten up!

 

[sosayi1960]

If the relationship with the pastor is important then it would make sense to approach him privately or write him a letter about the issues. Perhaps he will agree and address them at the meeting or in another way.

If you raise the matters is a public meeting, listing these things the pastor allows as abuses, the pastor is likely to feel humiliated and your relationship with him damaged.

It seems to me that the number of Extraordinary Ministers is the pastor’s call. It is not a liturgical abuse if he honestly thinks that is how many he needs. So I would not raise this, at least until progress has been made on the other issues.

Some documentation on the other issues:

FLAGON
2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:
“[106.] However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms.”

SIGN OF PEACE
From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“154. … The priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration. In the dioceses of the United States of America, for a good reason, on special occasions (for example, in the case of a funeral, a wedding, or when civic leaders are present) the priest may offer the sign of peace to a few of the faithful near the sanctuary.”
Also n. 294 may be helpful on this.

KNEELING FOR CONSECRATION
2002 GIRM
“43. The faithful should … In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …”.
If in England or Wales, their 2002 GIRM has:
“43. … But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.”

Sometimes questions can be more diplomatic, for example, “Has our bishop given any directions about the posture of the people during the Eucharistic Prayer?”

Boy, you seem to love the letter of the law and Hate the heart of the law. Perhaps some Klonopin might work. I’m being charitable.
Love one another as Christ has loved us. Be at Peace!

 

[Flopfoot]

Boy, you seem to love the letter of the law and Hate the heart of the law. Perhaps some Klonopin might work. I’m being charitable.
Love one another as Christ has loved us. Be at Peace!

Lying is a sin against the 8th commandment.
For that matter, so is a false accusation like saying that someone hates the heart of the law when that is not at all evident in their post and probably not true. He’s trying to make sure the sacredness of the liturgy is respected, and you have a problem with that? Fix your head please.
And by the way, I’m not being charitable.

 

[jac]

Pray for the priest. Don’t underestimate the power of prayer. It is fine to be proactive if we have the authority to do so but if we have no authority to challenge perceived abuses we can pray to the 'Spirit", trust, be patient and charitable and all will be well

 

[Yes]

Pray for the priest. Don’t underestimate the power of prayer. It is fine to be proactive if we have the authority to do so but if we have no authority to challenge perceived abuses we can pray to the 'Spirit", trust, be patient and charitable and all will be well

Oh, I most certainly do. It’s a wonderful thing to have a GOOD pastor. So many problems that could “never be solved” have now vanished…

 

[Yes]

…Back to the original topic.

My advice, for what it’s worth, would be to set up a private meeting ASAP with your pastor. He’s the “good guy,” and needs to know you’re on his side, and not attacking him. Show up with your documentation in hand, and explain your concerns about what the “expert” is likely to propose, contrary to express statements from the Pope himself. Without saying it in such crass terms, the situation sounds like an orthodox pastor, an orthodox bishop, and a liturgical loose cannon in between. I’d think enlisting the pastor’s support, and engendering his legitimately protective feelings towards his flock would go a long way. If he came to the meeting as well, forearmed and forewarned, it could make more of an impact…

Good luck, and no matter what, don’t forget to keep praying to the Holy Spirit!!!

Margaret

I think that’s very good advice, but I sorta want to leave my pastor out of it. He’s still new enough and he’s already instituted enough changes so he dosen’t have to take responsibility for creating the current mess.

I’d like to provide public ammo for him to use as he continues to face-down the large number of laypersons who resist him at every turn…