Moral Question

[misericordie]

All, I have a Cousin who was married once in the Catholic Church, and he has never attained an anullment. However, he seems to want to date and be romantically in love, and he says this is okay as long as he does not violate chastity. But, I don’t think it’s fine, is he not still married in the eyes of God? He also says he engaged years ago when he first divorced, in impure sins with his dates. BUT he says that’s before he met Jesus, and changed. However, he still dreams of being in love again, and married, BUT HE IS NOT EVEN ANNULLED!!! I wonder if this is what maybe a friend told him to do. After all he lives in Europe, but I would imagine the SAME Catholic laws apply there too?
So, what do you all think??? Please advise. I am sure he needs some form of spiritual direction, but won’t seek it.

 

[FiremanFrank]

misericordie
All, I have a Cousin who was married once in the Catholic Church, and he has never attained an anullment.

Common. Unfortuneate, but common.

However, he seems to want to date and be romantically in love … is he not still married in the eyes of God?

Yes.

he still dreams of being in love again, and married

In what Church does he wish to be married? If he wants to marry in the Catholic Church, then he MUST get an anullment. But this is where we lose alot of Catholics to other Christian Churches. Many of them leave to marry in those Churches, probably just because it’s easier.

he lives in Europe, but I would imagine the SAME Catholic laws apply there too?

You betcha!

Please advise. I am sure he needs some form of spiritual direction, but won’t seek it.

Not wanting to seek spiritual direction on such an important issue as marriage is not a good sign. But if you want to get him thinking, try asking him some of these questions:

• What did you think it meant when you got married in the Catholic Church?
• What do you think God thought it meant?
• If you remarry some day, what church do you plan on getting married in - and why?

Let me know what his responses are …

 

[misericordie]

FiremanFrank:

Common. Unfortuneate, but common.

Yes.

In what Church does he wish to be married? If he wants to marry in the Catholic Church, then he MUST get an anullment. But this is where we lose alot of Catholics to other Christian Churches. Many of them leave to marry in those Churches, probably just because it’s easier.

You betcha!

Not wanting to seek spiritual direction on such an important issue as marriage is not a good sign. But if you want to get him thinking, try asking him some of these questions:

• What did you think it meant when you got married in the Catholic Church?
• What do you think God thought it meant?
• If you remarry some day, what church do you plan on getting married in - and why?

Let me know what his responses are …

Thanks. So he is in grave sin by dating??? Or seeking to fall in love??? By the way, yes, he says that he would like to get Married IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AGAIN. What about the person who knows his situation and is also “catholic” but dates him, etc??

 

[Sgt_Sweaters]

misericordie:

Thanks. So he is in grave sin by dating??? Or seeking to fall in love??? By the way, yes, he says that he would like to get Married IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AGAIN. What about the person who knows his situation and is also “catholic” but dates him, etc??

Sure he is. He’s Catholic, he should know better than to date around or remarry after a civil divorce, and thus must be held accountable. It’s adultery, plain and simple. In the eyes of God, he is seeking to date and fall in love while still married to the woman he has divorced.
To the second part, the person who dates him, she partakes in the act as well. Then neither is she absolved. The Lord was clear on this point.

 

[FiremanFrank]

Sgt Sweaters
Sure he is. He’s Catholic, he should know better than to date around or remarry after a civil divorce, and thus must be held accountable. It’s adultery, plain and simple. In the eyes of God, he is seeking to date and fall in love while still married to the woman he has divorced.
To the second part, the person who dates him, she partakes in the act as well. Then neither is she absolved. The Lord was clear on this point.

What sweaters said. .

But if I may add just a bit …

So he is in grave sin by dating??? Or seeking to fall in love??? What about the person who knows his situation and is also “catholic” but dates him, etc??

To be in grave sin, the CCC states that a person must have full awareness that their actions are sinful, and then give full consent to those actions. I’m not making excuses for you cousin and any girl who might possibly date him, but does he meet those requirements?

he says that he would like to get Married IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AGAIN.

Not without an anullment he isn’t!

Better break the news to him gently …

 

[Princess_Abby]

The state of a person’s soul and whether or not he or she meets the conditions for mortal sin is between that person, his confessor and God. You will never know what the state of his will is, if he has full knowledge and consent, nor will you be privy to any mitigating circumstances that could impede his choice-making. Speculation is merely gossip.

 

[misericordie]

Princess_Abby:

The state of a person’s soul and whether or not he or she meets the conditions for mortal sin is between that person, his confessor and God. You will never know what the state of his will is, if he has full knowledge and consent, nor will you be privy to any mitigating circumstances that could impede his choice-making. Speculation is merely gossip.

Not in THIS case, actually the NEW CATECHISM of the Catholic Church states what is a sin or not, and does not tailor whether something is right or wrong according to the individual person. For example, adultery is always wrong, that according to THE PUBLIC TEACHING OF THE CHURCH, and this is not a dirty little secret, it is all over the New Testament, as well as the Magisterium of the Church. By the way, in this case it further would not be classified as “gossip” being that no one here knows who THIS COUSIN IS.

 

[Princess_Abby]

misericordie:

Not in THIS case, actually the NEW CATECHISM of the Catholic Church states what is a sin or not, and does not tailor whether something is right or wrong according to the individual person. For example, adultery is always wrong, that according to THE PUBLIC TEACHING OF THE CHURCH, and this is not a dirty little secret, it is all over the New Testament, as well as the Magisterium of the Church. By the way, in this case it further would not be classified as “gossip” being that no one here knows who THIS COUSIN IS.

That is not what I said.

Adultery is objectively wrong. A sin is a sin, whether or not someone is aware he or she is committing it.

HOWEVER, what I was pointing out is that you, nor anyone else, will ever know how culpable he is for his actions because we are not aware of his knowledge concerning the subject, nor what mitigating circumstances may keep him from acting freely with his will. Full consent of will, AND full knowledge has to be present in order for him to be culpable and truly committing a mortal sin.

 

[Sgt_Sweaters]

Princess_Abby:

HOWEVER, what I was pointing out is that you, nor anyone else, will ever know how culpable he is for his actions because we are not aware of his knowledge concerning the subject, nor what mitigating circumstances may keep him from acting freely with his will. Full consent of will, AND full knowledge has to be present in order for him to be culpable and truly committing a mortal sin.

My point earlier was that he being a Catholic, he’d have to have some pretty terrible catechesis not to know that dating around while only civilly divorced is a mortal sin.
As to your other point, what would be acting against his free will? Are you proposing that he’s being pressed into a dating relationship?

 

[Princess_Abby]

Sgt Sweaters:

My point earlier was that he being a Catholic, he’d have to have some pretty terrible catechesis not to know that dating around while only civilly divorced is a mortal sin.
As to your other point, what would be acting against his free will? Are you proposing that he’s being pressed into a dating relationship?

Have you ever stepped inside a Catholic school lately? “Terrible Catechesis” is the norm. ESPECIALLY in Europe. Churches are empty. Many people are very fuzzy on what the Church teaches regarding a variety of topics.

Furthermore, concerning his will, many things are possibly impeding it. An emotional attachment to this new girl, the habit of dating her, loneliness, depression, an overwhelming desire to be loved, etc.

In terms of advising a person involved in a situation like this, Misericordie would be totally within moral bounds to inform his cousin in a charitable way that his actions are not in accord with the Church’s teaching (and explain why). However, we are not allowed to make a personal judgement considering the culpability of his cousin. Mortal sin has three components, and grave matter is only one of them.

 

[misericordie]

Sgt Sweaters:

My point earlier was that he being a Catholic, he’d have to have some pretty terrible catechesis not to know that dating around while only civilly divorced is a mortal sin.
As to your other point, what would be acting against his free will? Are you proposing that he’s being pressed into a dating relationship?

Being that he is my Cousin, and I know him well because he has confided MUCH to me: he well fully KNOWS what the Church’s position in this is, but still says he is lonely and would like to date in order to know who to Marry one day. KNOW: he has full consent of his will. Yes, terrible catechesis and a JUSTIFICATION of his own sins, is present here.

 

[misericordie]

misericordie:

All, I have a Cousin who was married once in the Catholic Church, and he has never attained an anullment. However, he seems to want to date and be romantically in love, and he says this is okay as long as he does not violate chastity. But, I don’t think it’s fine, is he not still married in the eyes of God? He also says he engaged years ago when he first divorced, in impure sins with his dates. BUT he says that’s before he met Jesus, and changed. However, he still dreams of being in love again, and married, BUT HE IS NOT EVEN ANNULLED!!! I wonder if this is what maybe a friend told him to do. After all he lives in Europe, but I would imagine the SAME Catholic laws apply there too?
So, what do you all think??? Please advise. I am sure he needs some form of spiritual direction, but won’t seek it.

Any further thoughts on this?

 

[Aesq]

misericordie:

Any further thoughts on this?

I am not sure that this is quite as black and white as many here seem to make it.

If this person is actively dating in the context of seeking out a romantic relationship this would be a problem. However, what dating is needs to be defined. Simply being friends with members of the opposite sex and doing things with them is not wrong. What is ment by dating is important to know.

The black and white way some of these answers come down are not always so clear in the application to the facts on the ground.

Then the question becomes what happens if two people fall in love while only intending to be friends. Are they both now in a state of mortal sin because one is divorced and no annulment has been granted?

 

[space_ghost]

…and probably the worst part will be the broken hearts when he informs them he is not marriagable… i assume some still care…

 

[Aesq]

If it is really love, one would hope that the other party would be willing to wait to discover if an annullment would be granted. Although that is a lot to ask of someone.

 

[Aesq]

What this guy needs to do is file a petition and see if he can be granted an annulment. If he feels that he needs to date and wants to remarry he just needs to file. Even if it is not granted he is no worse off than he is now. If it is granted then he is free to date and remarry.

 

[misericordie]

Aesq:

What this guy needs to do is file a petition and see if he can be granted an annulment. If he feels that he needs to date and wants to remarry he just needs to file. Even if it is not granted he is no worse off than he is now. If it is granted then he is free to date and remarry.

Yup.

 

[stbruno]

Another question is if your cousin is a practicing Catholic or one in name only. When I gently remind my own family members about maintaining their relationship with the church by obtaining annulments or getting dispensations from canonical forms, I am talking to the wall or sometimes I get belligerence or defiance because unfortunately, they pick and choose how they want to obey our Catholic faith. Just keep praying and setting the right example!
Never stop praying !

 

[misericordie]

stbruno:

Another question is if your cousin is a practicing Catholic or one in name only. When I gently remind my own family members about maintaining their relationship with the church by obtaining annulments or getting dispensations from canonical forms, I am talking to the wall or sometimes I get belligerence or defiance because unfortunately, they pick and choose how they want to obey our Catholic faith. Just keep praying and setting the right example!
Never stop praying !

He goes to every Sunday Mass.

 

[chevalier]

I will be speaking in strong words, so be warned.

There is a growingly common view that romance has nothing to do with marriage and that it’s OK to have a romance so long as you don’t break your sexual obligations. But that’s a big joke.

Theologically speaking, there are two kinds of love: agape and eros. Agape is charity, friendly love, fraternal love and whatnot. It’s not merely allowed but required. “Love thy neighbour” is this kind of love.

The other kind of love is eros. It covers everything, not just sex. The whole thing between a man and a woman. It’s exclusive and indivisible from the beginning to the end, or at least should be. A married man may find himself romantically attracted or even attached to a woman other than his spouse and the attraction alone is morally neutral, but acting on the attraction is a whole different story.

The vow says conjugal love, fidelity and honesty. Not sexual love, fidelity and honesty. It doesn’t mean the wife has to a soulmate or that there can’t be a valid marriage in the absence of romantic feelings. But romance is reserved for the spouse. There’s absolutely nothing wrong in having friendships with women, enjoying their company, liking to look on them, dance with them etc. But leaving the wife emotionally for another woman is not so very different from leaving her sexually.

Besides, romantic love always suffers from non-consummation. The love that a man can share with a woman but couldn’t with another man is always naturally gravitating towards special closeness.

Sometimes, love between siblings or close friends may take some romantic forms, at least in external appearance. It isn’t normally done, but you could come across friends walking in the rain, siblings dancing to some sentimental tunes, guys buying flowers for female friends etc. But deep in the heart everyone probably knows what is strong friendly or fraternal affection and what is native to seeking a partner.