Morally just to outlaw labor unions?

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No offense, but public-employee unions have been an issue in recent years. Would it be morally just for a government to outlaw the formation of labor unions? I realize that Pope Leo XIII issued an encyclical in 1891 known as Rerum Novarum, but…
 
No, no and no! Workers’ rights are needed and one of those rights are to unionize.
 
What! In a time where income inequality is at massive level, you want to destroy unions more than they have already been destroyed?! How can people focus on God if they are working for slave labor? Our economic system has to have an element of fairness and a level playing field for workers. The majority of people will always be workers. They deserve some fruit of their labor.
 
I agree. I don’t think people realize how little most public workers are paid. My first teaching job had an annual salary of $27K a year, and I had to pay for my own health insurance out of that. Both private and public sectors are always trying to cut labor costs so that the bosses can stick more of it into their own pockets. If they had their way, we would all work for free.
 
Pope Saint

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II

LABOREM EXERCENS
  1. Importance of Unions
All these rights, together with the need for the workers themselves to secure them, give rise to yet another right: the right of association, that is to form associations for the purpose of defending the vital interests of those employed in the various professions. These associations are called labour or trade unions. The vital interests of the workers are to a certain extent common for all of them; at the same time however each type of work, each profession, has its own specific character which should find a particular reflection in these organizations.

In a sense, unions go back to the mediaeval guilds of artisans, insofar as those organizations brought together people belonging to the same craft and thus on the basis of their work. However, unions differ from the guilds on this essential point: the modern unions grew up from the struggle of the workers-workers in general but especially the industrial workers-to protect their just rights vis-a-vis the entrepreneurs and the owners of the means of production. Their task is to defend the existential interests of workers in all sectors in which their rights are concerned. The experience of history teaches that organizations of this type are an indispensable element of social life, especially in modern industrialized societies. Obviously, this does not mean that only industrial workers can set up associations of this type. Representatives of every profession can use them to ensure their own rights. Thus there are unions of agricultural workers and of white-collar workers; there are also employers’ associations. All, as has been said above, are further divided into groups or subgroups according to particular professional specializations.

Catholic social teaching does not hold that unions are no more than a reflection of the “class” structure of society and that they are a mouthpiece for a class struggle which inevitably governs social life. They are indeed a mouthpiece for the struggle for social justice, for the just rights of working people in accordance with their individual professions. However, this struggle should be seen as a normal endeavour “for” the just good: in the present case, for the good which corresponds to the needs and merits of working people associated by profession; but it is not a struggle “against” others. Even if in controversial questions the struggle takes on a character of opposition towards others, this is because it aims at the good of social justice, not for the sake of “struggle” or in order to eliminate the opponent. It is characteristic of work that it first and foremost unites people. In this consists its social power: the power to build a community. In the final analysis, both those who work and those who manage the means of production or who own them must in some way be united in this community. In the light of this fundamental structure of all work-in the light of the fact that, in the final analysis, labour and capital are indispensable components of the process of production in any social system-it is clear that, even if it is because of their work needs that people unite to secure their rights, their union remains a constructive factor of social order and solidarity, and it is impossible to ignore it.
 
No offense, but public-employee unions have been an issue in recent years. …
That they are an issue is due mainly to a LOT of misunderstanding. As a former government employee and supervisor, having been on both sides, I can tell you whether gov. unions are good or bad depends on what is negotiable. The general perception in the public’s eye is that they are just the same as private sector unions. This is not the case. Public sector unions cannot negotiate pay, benefits, nor travel expenses, for example. In the case of federal employees, these are determined by congress. I assume state and local governments determine those for their employees.

By contrast, working conditions are negotiable. In fact, any change in the working conditions is also. There was a very interesting case over this a while back when the DOD got congress to build new visiting quarters for its service members. One of the justifications that helped sell the program was that civilian employees would be required to stay in them as well, to help pay for their operation. When they tried to implement this, the engineers union in my agency objected because it involved a change in the work environment. [Stay with me, here.] The current arrangement up to then paid a certain amount for civilians to stay in commercial lodging; everyone got the same amount for a given locale. With the advent of military lodging, low ranking civilains were assigned lesser quality lodging while higher ranking and management got the better quarters. Bingo! Change in working conditions! This grievance kept everyone, not just the upper crust, out of military lodging in favor of commercial lodging. Thanks to our 106 member union, the whole DOD was stopped from making civilian employees from paying for military quarters.

As a supervisor, I was the subject of a grievance by an under-performing subordinate facing discipline. My position was he did not perform an assignment. His defense was it was not important. In a meeting with his union rep, he made that defense. In an amazing turn of events, his rep said, “Well, Mr. Jones, as a representative of management Mr. “Unstoppable” has the prerogative of determining what is important.” IOW, the union took my side. You could just see the wind go out of his sails.

Another interesting case involved a union member employee who was always spoiling for a grievance. One day he quit and went to work for another outfit. He didn’t like the job and tried to come back. When he applied for membership in the union, they told him he was not wanted and was thereby not employable by his first employer.

So, you see, unions are not all bad.
 
The idea behind unions was for there to be a just wage, humane working conditions and no child labor.

Those days have since passed and if you mean USA unions, they lead the way in contributing to anti-life, anti-marriage and anti-religious freedom political campaigns. For these and because unions are generally more trouble than they are worth and riddled with scandal and corruption, I am against them.

Even FDR was against public employee unions. Private sector unions are still checked by the free market forces.
 
… Private sector unions are still checked by the free market forces.
Can you explain this? 🤷 I was a member of a private sector union, and there was no choice of which union I had to join, or not join.
 
The idea behind unions was for there to be a just wage, humane working conditions and no child labor.

Those days have since passed and if you mean USA unions, they lead the way in contributing to anti-life, anti-marriage and anti-religious freedom political campaigns. For these and because unions are generally more trouble than they are worth and riddled with scandal and corruption, I am against them.

Even FDR was against public employee unions. Private sector unions are still checked by the free market forces.
Private sector unions have been destroyed in this country and the vast majority of the public is suffering because of it. Your broad generalizations have no merit. The Catholic Church was riddled with corruption doesn’t mean the whole Church needed to be destroyed. Your political accusations are also generalizations. Companies are not paying workers decent wages despite how well profits are. Unions give power to workers.
 
… Companies are not paying workers decent wages despite how well profits are.
Most workers are paid just enough so they won’t quit, and work just hard enough so they won’t get fired. This sad fact was pointed out in a management seminar at my work.
Unions give power to workers.
A fellow called into a talk radio show asking for advice on how to get a job. The host asked why he was having trouble, and he replied that potential employers wanted him to get a haircut first. The host asked why he wouldn’t. His reply? “Nobody can tell me what to do.” It doesn’t take a genius to figure out he would be a problem employee because he is obviously inclined to be defiant and resist instructions. If you were a supervisor, would you want this person “empowered” for anything? :confused:
 
I think it would morally just to outlaw public sector employees from unionizing. Public sector employees are paid with tax dollars. When they unionize and strike for higher wages/benefits (generally far higher than that which would be paid in a similar job in the private sector) they are extorting taxpayers. I am not okay with that.

Private sector employees should be allowed to unionize…but private sector employers should retain the right to fire them all and replace them with non-union employees if the union doesn’t manage to find a balance between the needs of the employer and the wishes of the employees.

Overall I think unions are anachronistic- a throwback to the days before we had labor laws which protected life, safety, and rights of employees as well as laws which mandate minimum pay, maximum hours, etc. Essentially I think unions exist now only out of greed.
 
I think it would morally just to outlaw public sector employees from unionizing. Public sector employees are paid with tax dollars. When they unionize and strike for higher wages/benefits (generally far higher than that which would be paid in a similar job in the private sector) they are extorting taxpayers. I am not okay with that.
Not to worry. Public sector employees are not allowed to strike … for anything. The last time one of them tried, President Reagan fired them all except those who reported for work. Read my post #6 in this thread.

As far as higher wages are concerned, public sector wages have not even kept up with inflation for over 30 years. What you have observed is a gross decline in private sector wages, and someone has to be the scapegoat. It is like being on a boat and the tide goes out, it appears as though the land rose up. If their pay were cut, would that make everyone else better off?
 
As far as higher wages are concerned, public sector wages have not even kept up with inflation for over 30 years. What you have observed is a gross decline in private sector wages, and someone has to be the scapegoat. It is like being on a boat and the tide goes out, it appears as though the land rose up. If their pay were cut, would that make everyone else better off?
I’m not advocating for a pay cut. I am in favor of letting the market set the value of goods and services in both the private and public sectors. I am not in favor of allowing people to simply shut down whatever it is they do and keep it shut down until they get what they want, funded by the taxpayer who must pay for it but can’t negotiate. That is a gross violation of public trust and in my view, it’s immoral.
 
No offense, but public-employee unions have been an issue in recent years. Would it be morally just for a government to outlaw the formation of labor unions? I realize that Pope Leo XIII issued an encyclical in 1891 known as Rerum Novarum, but…
I think it would be morally problematic for a Catholic to oppose the right of workers to form unions or labor organizations. But that doesn’t mean that you have to support all unions or that you can’t oppose certain unions. Some unions are very bad and should be opposed or even disbanded. If a better organization takes its place great.

I live in Texas which is a right to work state. So, unions are not too out of control here. But we still have some bad ones. Some of the state chapters of the American Federation of Teachers are particularly unsavory - opposing classroom improvements and any innovative teaching approaches. They also have close ties to Planned Parenthood and even supported PP workers “officing” in local public schools. Fortunately, there are several alternative teachers associations that educators can join. The AFT chapters regularly threaten teachers who join the other groups but that just shows their true colors and drives more people away.
 
I’m not advocating for a pay cut. I am in favor of letting the market set the value of goods and services in both the private and public sectors.
And it does. The government has to compete with the private sector for qualified employees because that is where they come from. More often than not, the government loses because of its comparatively low wages. If you don’t believe this and you think gov. employees are overpaid, perhaps you can tell me why I had so much difficulty getting employees to sign on. To hear some people, one would think I had to weed out instead of actively recruit, which was not the case.
I am not in favor of allowing people to simply shut down whatever it is they do and keep it shut down until they get what they want, funded by the taxpayer who must pay for it but can’t negotiate. That is a gross violation of public trust and in my view, it’s immoral.
Where is this happening? Give me some examples. Once you come up with some examples of union employee caused shutdowns, perhaps you can tell me your plan on how 100,000,000+/- taxpayers could get together and negotiate union contracts for every agency throughout the country.
 
And it does. The government has to compete with the private sector for qualified employees because that is where they come from. More often than not, the government loses because of its comparatively low wages. If you don’t believe this and you think gov. employees are overpaid, perhaps you can tell me why I had so much difficulty getting employees to sign on. To hear some people, one would think I had to weed out instead of actively recruit, which was not the case.

Where is this happening? Give me some examples. Once you come up with some examples of union employee caused shutdowns, perhaps you can tell me your plan on how 100,000,000+/- taxpayers could get together and negotiate union contracts for every agency throughout the country.
Both my parents retired from the public sector. They didn’t make huge salaries (although their salaries were respectable) but my Dad retired with over $2M in his retirement fund. Not sure on what my mom’s fund was, but the bottom line is they retired younger than most private sector employees can retire and with a lot more money and they had free healthcare for life to boot.

As to doing your research for you on public sector strikes, I’m not going to do that. I think you are focusing on federal employees (who cannot strike) but not state or municipal employees (who can). Additionally, you seem to be rather set in your opinion, as am I. There is little point in us debating when neither of us are likely to change our minds.

Peace.
 
…they had free healthcare for life to boot.

As to doing your research for you on public sector strikes, I’m not going to do that. I think you are focusing on federal employees (who cannot strike) but not state or municipal employees …
You aren’t going to do it because there are no examples, and you know it. You are the one who didn’t distinguish between federal v. state and local employees, not me. I have the benefits book, and nowhere does it say they get free health care for life. Where did you get that one? E-rumor?

If government employment were such a great deal, have you taken advantage of the opportunities?
 
You aren’t going to do it because there are no examples, and you know it. You are the one who didn’t distinguish between federal v. state and local employees, not me. I have the benefits book, and nowhere does it say they get free health care for life. Where did you get that one? The internet?

If government employment were such a great deal, have you taken advantage of the opportunities?
Nice try, but no. My unwillingness to do your research for you is not proof that such things haven’t happened. They happen in my city annually. I’m simply unwilling to do something that I know you are capable of doing yourself, as you clearly have a computer and therefore access to google. I’m not your research assistant. I’m someone you are trying to debate despite my lack of interest in debating you.

To answer your last question, I have always been a private sector employee except for a brief stint at a grocery store where I was forced to join a union against my will despite the fact that I live in a right-to-work state and it’s illegal to force someone to join a union. It didn’t stop them from telling me “join or be fired.” Needless to say, I chose not to work there for very long. I make a respectable income in my field, and I prefer to earn my wages based on my merits and not on collective bargaining and strikes.

Now, on that note, I’m headed out for the afternoon so you’ll want to find someone else to argue with. I wish you a good day.
 
As to doing your research for you on public sector strikes, I’m not going to do that. I think you are focusing on federal employees (who cannot strike) but not state or municipal employees (who can).

Peace.
This depends on the laws of the state or municipality. In Missouri, teachers unions can’t go on strike. If a teacher walk out on their contract without permission from the school board, they lose their license.
 
Nice try, but no. My unwillingness to do your research for you is not proof that such things haven’t happened. They happen in my city annually. I’m simply unwilling to do something that I know you are capable of doing yourself, as you clearly have a computer and therefore access to google. I’m not your research assistant. I’m someone you are trying to debate despite my lack of interest in debating you.

To answer your last question, I have always been a private sector employee except for a brief stint at a grocery store where I was forced to join a union against my will despite the fact that I live in a right-to-work state and it’s illegal to force someone to join a union. It didn’t stop them from telling me “join or be fired.” Needless to say, I chose not to work there for very long. I make a respectable income in my field, and I prefer to earn my wages based on my merits and not on collective bargaining and strikes.

Now, on that note, I’m headed out for the afternoon so you’ll want to find someone else to argue with. I wish you a good day.
In post #13, you said:
… I am not in favor of allowing people to simply shut down whatever it is they do and keep it shut down until they get what they want, funded by the taxpayer who must pay for it but can’t negotiate. That is a gross violation of public trust and in my view, it’s immoral.
Not even a nice try. I asked you to prove these things are happening. I say they are not. It is up to you, not me, to back up your own statements.
To answer your last question, I have always been a private sector employee except for a brief stint at a grocery store where I was forced to join a union against my will …
You obviously don’t know what you are talking about. A grocery store is a private sector business. You apparently think it is public sector because it is unionized.
 
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