Morals Ethics and Obligations

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Some may have better explanations, but neither is rape.
  1. They are married, and that marriage seems to be her best situation available, and even then God does not tell the Israelite to rape her (pay close attention to the helping verbs), but only allows marriage and sexual relations. The Jews had always been reluctant against intermarriage (Moses being a famous exception) given the praiseworthy example of their forefather Jacob to go way out of their way to find someone of the same tribe. Earlier in Deuteronomy, they had been specifically told by God to do no such thing. Here, however, God allows it. It’s hard to imagine other religions in the ancients that would have been so deferential to the woman’s need to mourn, probably precisely because God knew that if allowed that month or so, things would normalize as well as could be under the circumstances.
  2. There is no rape if she is willing. The strong presumption is that she is willing because she easily could have cried out in those extremely otherwise busy and closely-juxtaposed huts. This is not the case for the fields, when it is a lot more easy to cart off an unwilling victim to a place of quiet to commit the crime. Had that law not been the case, then a guilty female party in the city could always say she was raped and get off free. I, for one, am not interpreting the law so harshly that it couldn’t allow for clemency in appropriate cases (for example, had the woman had been drugged). Maybe you could consult with a rabbi on that one.
No sanctioned rape.
 
How about sentencing the rape victim to death

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife. Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB
I am not clear that this is sentencing a “rape victim” to death. Illicit sexual activity was not something a Jewish woman of the time would easily engage in. The fact that “she did not cry out” means something like “offer no resistance” or, in other words, was a willing partner. Being “in the city” means any incident occurring in a public place would have been noticed by others.

The qualification was intended to distinguish this situation from an act of rape, not to sentence a rape victim to death.

Again, you are reading into the text your own impressions of what is being implied.
 
Yeah, as if rape can not happen in a marriage.

You invaded my country, killed my family, took me as a slave, married me… of course I am going to willingly have relations with you…

to find another translation

When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
 
Yeah, as if rape can not happen in a marriage.

You invaded my country, killed my family, took me as a slave, married me… of course I am going to willingly have relations with you…

to find another translation

When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Ok, your scoffing attitude is showing you to be what was most likely to be the case from the start: a troll.
 
Yeah, as if rape can not happen in a marriage.

You invaded my country, killed my family, took me as a slave, married me… of course I am going to willingly have relations with you…

to find another translation

When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, **if later on **you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
This “translation” is clearly one that translates to push one interpretation and does not attempt to get at the intended meaning. “If later on” is the key phrase. The original text does not say “if later on,” rather, it implies “if during the course of the trial month” and, therefore, nullifies your take on the reading.
 
Not trolling at all, however I was using sarcasm to make a statement sound as nonsensical as it was.

Plato I fail to see how you can not see compulsory marriage of a prisoner. Both translations the “setting aside” of the victim are post marriage.

that is however a distraction, the point that I wish to make and will continue to do so is that there is an active verb “Take” Laquah in the original Hebrew, to seize. The only way to see a willing bride is to read it into the text.

Numbers 31

The midianites are slaughtered,

14-18 NLT.
But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

You make keep the virgins for yourselves,
a willing union?

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

What do you propose they are doing with the women they “keep” while they enjoy their spoils?

Judges 5:30 NAB

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera’s spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil

What will each man do with their damsel or two?

12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

Is it fitting that Davids wives be raped as his punishment?

bbentrup, if I was trying to troll it would go something like this.

You claim that God is all powerful, all knowing, and all good.
Yet innocent people suffer, natural disaster leave horrific devastation in its wake. Disease and famine ravage the impoverished.

Therefore either God is all knowing and all good yet powerless to intervine,
Is all powerful and all good and yet is not aware of these evils,
or is all powerful and all knowing, yet chooses to let innocents suffer
therefore not all good.

I don’t expect an answer, simply pointing out the difference between inquiry and trolling.
 
Plato I fail to see how you can not see compulsory marriage of a prisoner. Both translations the “setting aside” of the victim are post marriage.
No they aren’t. They are both post the 30 day trial period before the marriage would be consummated.
The only way to see a willing bride is to read it into the text.
You are also reading into the text from a post-modern feminist perspective, not from the perspective of a pre-1000 BC woman who was bereft of her entire family, left to survive on her own.
 
I hope for civilized discussion, we’ll see what happens.

There are a few places in the Bible where God commands some pretty horrific things.

1.) Genocide
2.) Human Sacrifice
3.) Incest
4.) Rape
5.) Murder

Given the nature of God, as described in the bible, can you explain why you follow such a being?
Do you believe there is a God, and the Bible tells us about him?

Or do you believe there is no God and the bible is a piece(s) of creative writing?
 
…if I was trying to troll it would go something like this.

You claim that God is all powerful, all knowing, and all good.
Yet innocent people suffer, natural disaster leave horrific devastation in its wake. Disease and famine ravage the impoverished.
If goodness cannot supersede suffering, natural disaster and horrific devastation, then goodness can only be limited in extent. True goodness must far, far, far - in fact infinitely - exceed suffering, natural disaster and horrific devastation and make them all pale in comparison.

The reason these seem so overwhelming to us is because we view reality through rainbow coloured glasses, where every slight, every insult, every scratch is the end of the world. We live small so our goods are small and the ills are overpowering.

The reason suffering defeats the atheist conception of god is because the atheist cannot muster a notion of a god that is not consumed and overwhelmed by insults, slights and ills.
12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

Is it fitting that Davids wives be raped as his punishment?
The problem here, is that you limit God’s motives to merely those which you can conceive or imagine. Merely because it was David’s punishment that was reported does not imply that his wives didn’t merit punishment for other, undisclosed, reasons.

The problem, again, is that if you presume God is not omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent, then you can also presume that he operates under the same limitations as you do.

However, if you presume God is omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient, then his reasons for acting as he does and meting out punishment would be far beyond your ability to critique him.

Your argument only works premised on God being limited or non-existent because if you begin with the supposition that God is omniscient then his reasons for acting would take into account an enormous body of knowledge concerning individual motives, ill-will and consequences down through all of history. Knowledge which could not possibly be explained in the text of Samuel, Chronicles, Deuteronomy or Judges.

In other words, using these cases to argue against God presumes that your knowledge is sufficient to overrule the judgements of omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence. You have to presume you have sufficient knowledge to know better than God what should have been done in those situations, which, in effect, begs the question.

If God metes out punishment based upon omniscient knowledge of outcomes, motives, ill-will, needs, merit, etc., then on what basis can you argue his judgements are wrong? What do you know that God doesn’t?

You have to presume it was not God who made the judgements because if God did make the judgements there is nothing to argue - we don’t know enough today where and why he erred. In fact, omniscient and omnibenevolence logically means he couldn’t err. There would be no better judgement to be made.

You might argue that it couldn’t have been God, then, who made those judgements, but how would you know for sure? That would depend completely upon your level of goodness and knowledge, which apparently, you believe yourself to have in spades.

I guess I just don’t have that kind of confidence in my own capacity to rule about things that appear so problematic.
 
Saying that God did it makes it right is not a rationalization, it is a necessary conclusion with the premise of the Christian God. Its logically inconsistent to accept the premise of the Christian God and then question his actions as moral or immoral. God simply cannot do anything not good since all good is relative to him. A good action is an action that is in line with God’s will, and a not good action is an action that is not correlated with God’s will. We humans do not decide what is moral based on our opinions or preferences, morality is a measure of how much something correlates with God’s will. So whether I like what God did or not, it does not change the fact that God is God, and that he is the source of all goodness, and perfect. God is a perfect being and therefore incapable of imperfect actions. So if perfection is good God is incapable of imperfect acts.
 
Thank you, Gods thoughts are higher and faith. Does faith justify say, the murder of people who are not of the same faith. -2 Chronicles 14:12-13
At what point do you ask God “say what”?
The point is precisely where you distinguish between your moral responsibilities and God’s. If you suppose you have the wherewithal to judge God, it is at that point that you overstep your pay grade. What makes you presume you can make better judgements than God?

The crux of the problem becomes more obvious when we distinguish between a priori and a posteriori claims.

If there exists the omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent Being we call God, then logically and necessarily it follows that whatever judgements are made by this Being will be supremely good, properly arrived at and fulfilled in their due course. If judgements are not supremely good, properly arrived at or fulfilled, then it follows that they could not have been those of the Supreme Being.

It does not follow that human judgements made by individuals with scant evidence, a smidge of intelligence and a habit of not following through will be a priori (or even a posteriori) more sound or competently made than those of the 3 omni-God. We are the ones, by definition, that COULD be in error, and God is, by definition, the One who won’t be.

Of course, that is the a priori state of things, presuming that God DOES exist.

If God does exist, then we would not say to God, “Say, what?” It would, however, make sense to say, “I don’t understand.”

Now your argument is, I suppose, an a posteriori one. In other words, given the evidence, your claim is that a perfect God would not have issued such commands. The problem is that the evidence is insufficient to show that.

Imagine there is a perfectly just judge. This judge is not omniscient so he must have evidence presented to him and based upon that evidence makes a perfectly just a posteriori judgement with regard to every case before him. He never errs.
You bring this case before him as one of the litigants. Basically, your case is that evidence X and Y demonstrates that Z is wrong. X and Y being OT passages and Z being it was wrong to order the deaths of the Amalekites. You take your seat.
The defendant rises to plead his own case. The defendant, being omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent lays before the judge every possible particular of the case, including the mental states of every individual involved, acts of ill-will, repercussions of the decision down all through history, and a perfect depiction of why each person condemned to die merited death in every instance.
The judge listens intently. Your jaw drops to the floor. Which way do you suppose the perfectly just judge will rule?

Basically, your argument must amount to “God does not exist because an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient God would not order Z.” Yet you would have to be omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient to provide all the relevant evidence that would be required to conclusively show that. Are you?
You see, your argument fails because an incomplete body of a posteriori evidence cannot, in principle, rule out the possibility - based on more complete evidence - that God issued those orders precisely because you do not have access to the body of a posteriori evidence that would be required to demonstrate what the 3 Omni God would do to prove that this “God” is an imposter and not the 3 Omni God, after all.

Your case, in front of a perfectly just judge, would be dismissed for lack of evidence. You haven’t proven what you think you have.

Even, on utilitarian grounds, if it were the case that your conception of “the Good” perfectly aligned with the perfect “Good” for all, there is still the question of the means by which to bring that Good to fulfillment and safeguarding it against all possible threats down through all of history. You have very little knowledge or insight into long term consequences of the lives and actions of extant individuals, even your own. God, presumably, being eternal, and knowing every minute detail of the past, present and future along with the thoughts and motives of all individuals would better have a grip on the best course of action in every situation at every moment in time than you or I could ever imagine.

So, if God makes a determination, it might be beyond us as to why he did so, precisely because he has access to knowledge that is infinitely beyond us.

To ask of God, “Say, what?” is simply misconceived and presumptuous, although, “I don’t understand,” is quite legitimate.

You might retreat to a position that the Israelites were wrong for doing such things because they could not possibly have known what a 3 Omni God would command. However, you must recall that these commands were not issued in a vacuum and for no reason. They were preceded by a series of convincing wonders - the plagues, parting the Red Sea, pillars or smoke and fire, manna and quail in the desert, etc., that meant, minimally, a being with great authority was behind these commands. Presumably, this was the same God who made promises to Abraham some 400 years previously and who could clearly see into the future with regard to what will come about - no mean feat.
 
Do you believe there is a God, and the Bible tells us about him?

Or do you believe there is no God and the bible is a piece(s) of creative writing?
**J3nna **- just wondering about the above?
 
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