Mormon Exaltation in Light of Theosis

[Stephen168]

The OP only asked for patristic quotes that LDS “find favorable” to LDS belief regarding man’s ability to become like God and they were provided. It doesn’t mean LDS believe that every last aspect of that doctrine can be justified by a patristic quote, or even needs to be.

The doctrine relies on the definition of God. It is clear the belief of who God is has differed between the early church and Joseph Smith. That is why Mormons cannot find patristic quotes which mirror Joesph Smith’s understanding of God.

 

[gazelam]

Immortality is the ability to live forever or eternal life.

Certainly in a secular sense immortality and eternal life could have the same meaning.

In LDS vernacular immortality just means living forever, but Eternal Life means living the life God lives. Here is a brief talk distinguishing between the two:lds.org/new-era/2006/11/what-is-the-difference-between-immortality-and-eternal-life?lang=eng

Now I’m not Catholic but I bet Catholics have a way of distinguishing between just living forever (regardless of whether in Heaven or Hell), and living forever in Heaven

Regarding immortality, New Advent (newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm) states:
By immortality is ordinarily understood the doctrine that the human soul will survive death, continuing in the possession of an endless conscious existence.

and a bit later states:

The doctrine of immortality, strictly or properly understood, means personal immortality, the endless conscious existence of the individual soul. It implies that the being which survives shall preserve its personal identity and be connected by conscious memory with the previous life.

CCC 1022 states: Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

CCC 1023 states: Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ.

CCC 1035 states: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

I’m guessing those in the CCC 1035 category are not experiencing eternal life as described CCC 1023 even though they are immortal.

 

[Stephen168]

The doctrine relies on the definition of God. It is clear the belief of who God is has differed between the early church and Joseph Smith. That is why Mormons cannot find patristic quotes which mirror Joesph Smith’s understanding of God.

…

Now I’m not Catholic but I bet Catholics have a way of distinguishing between just living forever (regardless of whether in Heaven or Hell), and living forever in Heaven

St. Irenaeus:

For the Uncreated is perfect, that is, God. Now it was necessary that man should in the first instance be created; and having been created, should receive growth; and having received growth, should be strengthened; and having been strengthened, should abound; and having abounded, should recover [from the disease of sin]; and having recovered, should be glorified; and being glorified, should see his Lord.** For God is He who is yet to be seen, and the beholding of God is productive of immortality, but immortality renders one near unto God.**

 

[KathleenGee]

As Mormons are not Trinitarian, do not recognize Christ as God, the visible face of God the Father.

And the CCC’s never point to anything other than the one true God.

About Catholics living forever, just that concept in itself is foreign. It is rather I can be in heaven because I am nice, but it depends upon what one thinks is nice, because there are those who are cafeteria Catholics, and that in itself can mean many different things.

The soul is immortal. But it is not premortal.

One’s existence depends on God with the couple conceiving a human being. One cannot decide for himself in a premortal existence if he wanted to come here or not. This is not in Judeo Christian thought…over 5,600 years.

 

[Stephen168]

And the CCC’s never point to anything other than the one true God.

I agree and the doctrine of theosis depends on the definition of God. All other claims Mormons make about the early church father’s teachings on theosis/exaltation are void without showing the early Church and the Mormon Church have the same understand of who God is. God is the primary term in the discussion.

As I pointed out in Post #25, and David Paulsen agreed, is Mormons believe they are “gods in embryo.” Someday they will become just like God is now and God was once just like us. Which is different from Catholic and therefore, ancient Christian belief, as I pointed out in post #54 and again in post #70. This is the difference in WHAT is means to become god.

…

The teachings of Irenaeus gives us the final state of man. Athanasius tells us why there can only be one God. Now all a Mormon has to do is find an ECF that states that God the Father was once a man.

…

…

It is clear the God of Mormonism is different from the God of Christianity; different from what Christians have ever believed.

 

[gazelam]

Immortality is the ability to live forever or eternal life.

Ha! I knew there was a theological difference between immortality and eternal life. Romans 2:6,7 (straight from the USCCB I might add) states: who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works

See usccb.org/bible/romans/2.

“Eternal Life” comes from the greek “zōēn aiōnion”. “Immortality” comes from the greek “aphtharsian”.

See biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/2-7.htm for the translation of the entire verse.

The Irenaeus quote has issues.

 

[Stephen168]

Ha! I knew there was a theological difference between immortality and eternal life. Romans 2:6,7 (straight from the USCCB I might add) states: who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works

Romans 2:5-8:

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart,d you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
who will repay everyone according to his works:*
eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

Immortality is the ability to live forever or eternal life as used in scripture and by Irenaeus. If there was a theological difference, you would be able to tell us what the theological difference is, but you have not. And you would have given quotes that show how the early church believe God was as Joseph Smith described him, but you have not.

You are making a distinction without a difference; a logical fallacy.

 

[gazelam]

Immortality is the ability to live forever or eternal life as used in scripture and by Irenaeus. If there was a theological difference, you would be able to tell us what the theological difference is, but you have not. And you would have given quotes that show how the early church believe God was as Joseph Smith described him, but you have not.

You are making a distinction without a difference; a logical fallacy.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All of us will receive the gift of immortality, i.e. living forever.

John 17:3 (KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Eternal life is reserved only for those who come to know the Father and the Son.

A clear distinction with a difference.

 

[Stephen168]

St. Irenaeus:

For the Uncreated is perfect, that is, God.

David Paulsen:

Indeed, Joseph boldly proclaimed that humans are of the same origin and species as God: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!”

Christianity has always believed God is the uncreated creator.

Mormons believe God is a created being like man.

Therefore, When a Christian claims to become god, we mean to share in his divinity like a poker shares in the heat of the fire without becoming the fire. A Mormon believes they will become the fire because Mormons believe man is God in embryo.
St. Irenaeus:

Now it was necessary that man should in the first instance be created; and having been created, should receive growth; and having received growth, should be strengthened; and having been strengthened, should abound; and having abounded, should recover [from the disease of sin]; and having recovered, should be glorified; and being glorified, should see his Lord. For God is He who is yet to be seen, and the beholding of God is productive of immortality, but immortality renders one near unto God.

And we will be with God forever.

Irenaeus tells us that God is uncreated, man is created. If we are free of sin, we will live with God forever. So the final state of man is to be with God forever, NEVER to be God. We can never be God because we are created and there is only one creator of all things as St. Athanasius wrote.

My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.

The early church fathers NEVER believed that God was once a man and men are Gods in embryo as taught by Joseph Smith and believed by Mormons.

 

[Stephen168]

Joseph Smith:

We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.

A common position within the CoJCoLDS is that God the Father once lived and worshiped His God the Father.

Yes that is the Mormon teaching ©1844. Rejecting Christian teaching that God is uncreated, always was God and always will be God. The teaching described in post #70.

I disagree with this and follow Ostler’s view that Joseph Smith was instead teaching that God the Father became a man like Christ became a man, not like we were/are men.

This would be a new teaching ©2001; a teaching closer to Christianity.

The Mormon Church has rejected the teachings of Joseph Smith before, so I’m sure it is possible that this new teaching could someday be a dominate teaching within Mormonism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All of us will receive the gift of immortality, i.e. living forever.

John 17:3 (KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Eternal life is reserved only for those who come to know the Father and the Son.

A clear distinction with a difference.

Immortality is an attribute of God, so in that sense we become god-like, and you’ll see this understanding in the NT writings. The understanding is the Good News, of Jesus Christ who has reconciled us to the Father and made us joint heirs. He is the First Born from death.

There is in the NT references to a second death, which is the fate of those judged to hell. Hell, being a state where the soul is removed for eternity from the presence of God.

Otherwise, one is in heaven which is the truest definition of life, as God created us, to live in his presence. Our God is a God of the living, not the dead.

This is the theological difference you are looking for. However, there are instances where immortality and eternal life are used together. See 1 Timothy 6:16 where immortality is described as belonging to God alone. Therefore, we can understand that our own immortality in heaven will be a participation in the life of God, and not something we possess in and of ourselves. Also, a different type of immortality than those who are in hell and not sharing in the life of the Holy Trinity.

Eternal life and immortality are synonymous when speaking of heaven.

In other words, nuanced understandings of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, which theology and philosophy are used as tools to express.

 

[KathleenGee]

The ancient understanding of Theosis is daily confession of sin and Holy Communion, the Daily Sacrifice our nourishment of God Himself, we still creatures nurtured and given eternal life now.

Nobody can create sacramental confession and communion in Theosis. Only those chosen and properly ordained by a Catholic/Orthodox bishop.