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tkdnick
Guest
But they also believe the Apostle John never died. Strange contradiction!
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crazyage3
Guest
Are you sure they believe the apostle john never died? I know that john and peter came to joseph smith in 1800’s. I actually ask them about that, I’ve read that once a spirit passes on , it can not connect with the earth, i guess in a physical sense. SO how was it that he saw them? Visions of mary I understand because she was assumed into heaven. But the others werent. Just trying to understnad a lil more
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tkdnick
Guest
Yup, I’m sure of it. I had a 7 yr old boy tell me that once. Hard to argue apologetics with a 7 yr old. There are a couple of posts around here somewhere. They claim he went into some “supra-physical” state, where he is kinda spirit but kinda physical. I think it’s interesting because there are some references to John’s death (ex. Eusebius’ writings). Plus, how could there have been an apostacy after the death of the last apostle if the last apostle never died???
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
It appears that this was an ancient belief by some. See** John 21: 20-24**
but it appears that John did not believe it.
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tkdnick
Guest
Joe Kelley:
Yup. Not only did John not believe it, he flat out states that Jesus never said it.
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
Interesting to read that, I really never picked that out or even thought about it before. There are a few references to John in the Book of Mormon too, but that would not apply in a Catholic forum, so I will not pursue it. Also, I don’t know anything about it, so I need to read more…much more.
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tkdnick
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BJ Colbert:
That’s why I have such a hard time with this belief. The Bible specifically says that Jesus never said John wouldn’t die.
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Tmaque
Guest
LDS also believe in “the 3 Nephites” as men who were promised they would never die. I don’t know if this is still held as doctrine by the LDS Church because the LDS Church changes it’s doctrines so rapidly. It certainly would be no stretch in LDS thinking to believe that St. John would live forever based on one passage of scripture. Much like Jehovah’s Witnesses, they generally read into the Bible what they want.
I say this because I read the Bible through 3 different times before I left the LDS faith. After becoming Catholic I started reading the Bible again and it was like I had never read it before! Passages that I had never even seen as an LDS were jumping out at me continually. I believe that is because as a LDS I was reading the Bible from a perspective that was only interested in confirmation of LDS doctrine. Anything contrary to LDS doctrine I obviously ignored.
As a Catholic, over the past two years, I have found many passages that seemed to conflict with Catholic doctrine and I immediately researched them to my satisfaction. I actually LOOK for possible discrepancies with Catholic doctrine now because it is such a great way to build my faith, and it prepares me for future challenges from people who may criticize the Church.
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tkdnick
Guest
Well the LDS I know still hold this belief as true. And they made some mention of it being written that these three Nephites wanted the same thing that John desired - to live until Jesus’ second coming. Strange though, nowhere in any of the passages even close to John 21:21-24 does it EVER say John desired that. In fact, you can’t find that anywhere in the Bible.
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mormon_fool
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Joe Kelley:
Here is a speculative sequence of events.
will go to find some of confirmation of their beliefs , , ,
later,
fool
Does anybody, besides me think (speculate really) that someone besides John wrote the last few verses?
Here is a speculative sequence of events.
- Jesus and John have a conversation about John remaining until Jesus comes.
- Peter overhears some of it and becomes jealous.
- Jesus, later informs everyone of a traitor in their midst.
- Peter suspects John.
- Jesus addresses the source of Peter’s suspicions leaving the only biblical recollection of the original conversation.
- A rumor surfaces-- that may or may not be based in part by additional inside information-- and spreads that John would not die.
- Many years later, John is buried in Ephesus although some people imagine he is still alive. The grave breathes!
- Others who believed the rumor are highly disconsolate and open to attacks of critics who like to claim one false prophecy invalidates a prophet.
- A faithful inheritor of John’s text stems the controversy off by adding a gloss reminding people of the limited information that was in the record. I.E. the rumor doesn’t have much of an official basis, and is open to interpretation.
will go to find some of confirmation of their beliefs , , ,later,
fool
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tkdnick
Guest
mormon fool:
Sounds like a BIG stretch to me…Does anybody, besides me think (speculate really) that someone besides John wrote the last few verses?
Here is a speculative sequence of events.
The length that some fools
- Jesus and John have a conversation about John remaining until Jesus comes.
- Peter overhears some of it and becomes jealous.
- Jesus, later informs everyone of a traitor in their midst.
- Peter suspects John.
- Jesus addresses the source of Peter’s suspicions leaving the only biblical recollection of the original conversation.
- A rumor surfaces-- that may or may not be based in part by additional inside information-- and spreads that John would not die.
- Many years later, John is buried in Ephesus although some people imagine he is still alive. The grave breathes!
- Others who believed the rumor are highly disconsolate and open to attacks of critics who like to claim one false prophecy invalidates a prophet.
- A faithful inheritor of John’s text stems the controversy off by adding a gloss reminding people of the limited information that was in the record. I.E. the rumor doesn’t have much of an official basis, and is open to interpretation.
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mormon_fool
Guest
You are right, of course. Maybe I should just stick to ideas I actually have evidence for. But there are a lot of fun traditions. Like this bit I found while googling:
http://www.catholicculture.org/lit/activities/view.cfm?id=1231
If mormons misinterpret the scripture here, at least we have good company with some of the early Christians.
later,
fool
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Benadam
Guest
That’s a great bridge to cross, when faith overcomes the notion of contradiction and finds instead an invitation to mystery.
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tkdnick
Guest
mormon fool:
No, you’re free to espouse anything you want, facts or not. Just like I’m free to completely disagree with you, facts or not.
Great, so now John was a vampire! :bigyikes:
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BJ_Colbert
Guest
I don’t know anything about John, but a question came up while conversing with my Catholic husband today and I told him I would ask this forum for the answer.
Could you please tell me where in the Bible it says that Mary ascended to Heaven without dying? My husband says Catholics believe this and I don’t know of any place in the KJ Bible where it tells of this. I told him that it probably tells about it in the Catholic Bible, since Catholics believe nothing has ever or ever will be added to scripture, it must be in the original books of the Bible. Can anyone clarify this to us. Thank You all,
BJ
Could you please tell me where in the Bible it says that Mary ascended to Heaven without dying? My husband says Catholics believe this and I don’t know of any place in the KJ Bible where it tells of this. I told him that it probably tells about it in the Catholic Bible, since Catholics believe nothing has ever or ever will be added to scripture, it must be in the original books of the Bible. Can anyone clarify this to us. Thank You all,
BJ
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crazyage3
Guest
BJ Colbert:
She was never touched by personal sin. (Gen 3:15)
Some apocrypahl documents describe Mary’s transition from earth to heaven. from Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson Ante Nicene Fathers Volume 8 pg 591…“the apostles carried the couch and laid down her precious and holy body In Gethsemane in a new tomb. And behold, a perfume of sweet savour came forth out of the sepulcher of our Lady and mother of God; and for three days the voices of invisible angels were heard glorifying Crist our God, who had been born of her. And when the third day was ended, the voices were no longer heard; and from the time forth all knew that her spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” There are a bunch of these writings. All of the early fathers stories coincide with each other.
Why shouldnt she have been assumed into heaven! She said yes to God and remained spotless (even while watching her Son being crucified) THis is when we have to hold steadfast to oral tradition. If we go sola scriptura, then we are going against the bible!
Mary had no corrupt nature. She was free from original sin. This is why we say she is the Immaculate Conception. She had to be, she carried our Lord! Everyone else is born with the original sin.
She was never touched by personal sin. (Gen 3:15)
Some apocrypahl documents describe Mary’s transition from earth to heaven. from Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson Ante Nicene Fathers Volume 8 pg 591…“the apostles carried the couch and laid down her precious and holy body In Gethsemane in a new tomb. And behold, a perfume of sweet savour came forth out of the sepulcher of our Lady and mother of God; and for three days the voices of invisible angels were heard glorifying Crist our God, who had been born of her. And when the third day was ended, the voices were no longer heard; and from the time forth all knew that her spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” There are a bunch of these writings. All of the early fathers stories coincide with each other.
Why shouldnt she have been assumed into heaven! She said yes to God and remained spotless (even while watching her Son being crucified) THis is when we have to hold steadfast to oral tradition. If we go sola scriptura, then we are going against the bible!
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tkdnick
Guest
BJ Colbert:
There is no place in the Bible that says Mary ascended to Heaven. However, that does not mean that Mary’s ascension is counter-Bible. First, there is no recorded tomb of Mary. I would think, if there was a tomb with Mary in it, that GAZILLIONS of people would flock there every year. Second, assumption into Heaven is something that occurs in the Bible, so we know it can happen. Third, as crazy age noted, there are lots of stories, and it was held by the early Church that Mary was assumed into Heaven. And why not? Why would the Mother of God, who was born without sin NOT be assumed body and soul into Heaven?
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FCEGM
Guest
BJ -
The Church does not teach one way or another on the death of Mary, though the theological consensus seems to be that she most probably did die (to more closely imitate her Son) and was then Assumed to Heaven.
This, from the Catholic Answers’ library, addresses the subject more fully:
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
In Christ,
Frances
The Church does not teach one way or another on the death of Mary, though the theological consensus seems to be that she most probably did die (to more closely imitate her Son) and was then Assumed to Heaven.
This, from the Catholic Answers’ library, addresses the subject more fully:
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
In Christ,
Frances
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Joseph_Romero
Guest
This thread has wandered and is now closed.
God Bless,
God Bless,
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