Mormon Help

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crazyage3

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I have Mormons that come over to my house to talk with me about our Lord. I like sharing with them. I also like learning about their faith. They believe that they are the restored church of Jesus. What I dont understand is why would Jesus just start a new church…wouldnt he fixed the corruption within it? Also they say that after peter died there was no Christianity on the face of this earth. No apostles to teach. But isnt St Linus an apostle? isnt the pope an apostle? They say that we need 12 apostles in our church…who are our 12 apostles…arent they still the original apostles? I need some help with this cause they are convincing but thankfully I know where the Lord wants me at this time, with His church!
adrienne
 
To begin with, if you are going to discuss things with them, you will need to address something for which they truly have no answer. Keep in mind that some of the teachings they are professing (like the need to continuously have the apostles) is from the Book of Mormon and not from Scripture. They accept the Bible and the Book of Mormon but nothing in between. Why? Because they believe that the Early Church fell into apostacy almost immediately after the Apostles. However, this is demonstrably false.

I have a series of posts that try to give such a demonstration here (forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=249424#post249424). What you need to do is get them to address this question because, until they do, they simply won’t listen to anything that happened for 1800 years of the Church. I recommend a trio of books titled “The Faith of the Early Fathers” edited by William Jurgens.

I hope that this helps somewhat.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there must always be twelve Apostles in the Church, but it does clearly show that the Apostles passed on their authority to those who became known as bishops (episcopoi or overseers).
 
the idea that the original church fell into apostacy and needed to be completely restored is nonsense and unscriptural. Ask them about Matthew 16:18 and the gates of Hell not prevailing against Jesus’ Church.

However be prepared for alot of frustration because Mormonism teaches such radically different beliefs from any other Christian denomination. Frankly it is a very bizzare quasi-Christian religion. They believe that God the father has a body and once was a man created by another God, and that men (not women though) can become gods in heaven and rule over their own planet. Our god himself lives on a planet called Kolob. You can see where this is going …bad science fiction basically.
 
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theMutant:
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there must always be twelve Apostles in the Church, but it does clearly show that the Apostles passed on their authority to those who became known as bishops (episcopoi or overseers).
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Why does Peter desire only one replacement for Judas in Acts 1:15-26? Why not both? Or more? Or no replacement at all? Why must the number of apostles be restored to twelve? Just a little confused about this.

And theMutant… do you have that long post in some other more easily printable format somewhere? I’d like to read the whole thing.

Anyway, to crazyage3…

Ask the Mormon this: How is it that Joseph Smith may pass his authority as “Prophet” to sucessors, and yet Peter can’t?

Ask them this: Suppose a Martian came to earth and wanted to study Christianity. Even supposing Christ was just a man, which organization do you think the Martian would recognize as the legitimate decendant of Christ: the Catholic Church, which can establish direct succession back to the historical person of Jesus Christ, OR the Mormon Church which can establish direct succession back to Joseph Smith, who claims to have seen an angel or something.

Ask them this: If Christ is to “be with us always, until the end of the age” and “the gates of hell shall not prevail” against His Church, how is it that Christ established his church not once, but twice (in north america, according to them) and BOTH failed?

When you back them into a corner their typical response is “that hasn’t been revealed yet”… your response might be “Well, maybe it has been revealed, and you missed it.”

And finally, don’t let them rely on their “testimony”. Tell them: Well, that’s nice, but I have a testimony too, as do thousands of our Saints, and millions of the Catholic faithful. So, you have a testimony, and I have a testimony, so we’re all squared up as far as testimonies go. Now, can you proove historically that your church can trace it’s authority all the way back to Christ himself?
 
I work extensively with Mormons and have been reading up on a lot of their teachings, which frankly casts a pale chill after a while…

www.catholic.com has lots of good info on Mormonism go there first. There also many Mormon-related posts in the NON-CATHOLIC forums here at Catholic Answers which a number of Mormons and ex-Mormons use to bat around ideas from time to time.

After that, you may want to peruse specific topics on the web. There are COUNTLESS sites dedicated to debunking their faith – many by non-affiliated ex-Mormons. These will be a good way to buttress you understanding of how fatally flawed their theology is from the outset but I reccomend that you do not try to win them over by bashing their origins. The idea is to build them up into Catholics by INCREASING their understanding of the Judeo-Christian God, not by disenfranchising them from all faiths.

By building, I mean approach them on the topic of finite vs infinite God. Ours is bigger and he always will be (please check out some of my past postings on this).

Mormons are just as subjectivist and relativist as any other Protestant branch, so using their own Book of Mormon to disprove some of their more pagan ideas will not work, generally (though you will find it is adequately refutes all their weirder ideas). Dogmatism is one of the evils of our Catholic Church and Mormons are very proud of the fact that they can “go directly to God and get the answer straight from Him.” (as if Catholics can’t talk to God directly!!) Then, if they get a warm fuzzy, then whatever they asked from God is granted. So if they want to get an abortion, or use birth control, the warm fuzzy will justify it.

Still, read the Book of Mormon yourself. I altered mine so I can take it out in public without alarming people that I might be considering converting (Book of Pokemon).

WARNINGS:
  1. “Milk before Meat” Mormons will couch their theology in terms that mimic traditional Christian ones in order to lead you into their faith. They are not above using outright lies to trick people into thinking they worship the same God. They do not. When you confront them on these, you get a lot of apologetic double talk and back-pedaling. Again, because of the relativistic concept of changeable truth that they believe in, you will not get a straight answer.
  2. Anti-Catholic. When you get the B’M, check the index in the back for “Churches.” The Catholic Church is the one listed under headings like “Church of the Devil”, “False Church”, etc. Go ahead and look these up, if you can stomach them (there are other anti-Catholic categories, too, like “Priestcraft”). The book of 2 Nephi makes it pretty clear that you do not necessarily have to be Mormon to go to one of the Mormon heavens, but Catholics get to spend eternity licking up the dust off Mormon feet (6:13). Remember, if the Catholic Church is not the Church of Satan, then Mormonism does not have a leg to stand on, so brush up on your early Catholic history as well. You should also remember that they are actively trying to save you from that fate out of a sense of compassion, so keep your emotions in check.
  3. Mormon escape pod. Whenever a Mormon is trapped and cannot provide an answer, he will make a reference to the fact that you are persecuting him or her. I find this insincere seeing as their faith is institutionalized anti-Catholicism (along with Seventh Day Adventism and the Masons, who also have ties or similarities to Mormonism). At this point, you have no choice but to let them go and hope they will research the issue more on their own.
Whatever happens, I pray that this will at least be a growing experience for you. :gopray:
 
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bengeorge:
Why does Peter desire only one replacement for Judas in Acts 1:15-26? Why not both? Or more? Or no replacement at all? Why must the number of apostles be restored to twelve? Just a little confused about this.
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The number didn’t have to be twelve, but a successor was chosen to fill the role vacated by Judas. This is the foundation of Apostolic succession. When Paul established various local churches in his travels, he also ordained bishops to succeed him as the head of those churches when he moved on. The letters to Timothy show this.

The Apostleship of Paul is further proof that the number did not have to be twelve, for Matthias was chosen to succeed Judas - bringing the number back to twelve - and Paul was subsequently ordained and known as an Apostle. Doesn’t that equal 13? The point is not in the number of apostolic leaders, but in apostolic succession itself. Every bishop of the Catholic Church receives apostolic succession in their ordination to the episcopacy. The pope is the head of the Church because he succeeds Peter as the bishop of Rome.
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bengeorge:
And theMutant… do you have that long post in some other more easily printable format somewhere? I’d like to read the whole thing.
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If you send me an e-mail (click on my name at the top of this post) I will send you the Word document.
 
Thank you all but please dont worry…I dont believe it…maybe they have a little bit of truth in their religion but that is it. They tell me to ask the Holy Spirit iif the book of mormon is true. I heard God telling me to not even ask HIm because I already know the answer, no.
 
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crazyage3:
Thank you all but please dont worry…I dont believe it…maybe they have a little bit of truth in their religion but that is it. They tell me to ask the Holy Spirit iif the book of mormon is true. I heard God telling me to not even ask HIm because I already know the answer, no.
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With all due respect to Mormons, I have studied many religions the world over and this one betrays even the smallest hope of having some basic form of truth. It has been by far the most disappointing religion I have ever seen. Buddhism does not disappoint me. I can appreciate its truths and see its inherent flaws. Protestantism does not disappoint me. Even Islam did not disappoint me (though it does frighten me as being particularly obsessed with killing.) But the Mormon faith is too bleak, confining, and illogical.

“Beam me out, Bones. There’s no truth down here.”
 
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