Mormon Missionaries

[awfulthings9]

Some Mormon missionaries are coming by later this week. First, let me say that I have the upmost respect for anyone who is sincerely seeking a true understanding of God, howevermuch I may disagree with Mormon doctrine. I’m not looking to start a stomp-on-the-Mormons thread, but I would like advise from anyone who has conversed with such missionaries recently. I don’t intend to be confrontational, but I am anxious to share the truth of Catholicism and have read quite a bit of Mormon literature and critiques. I don’t have any hopes of conversion, especially because of the safeguards against it in that the missionaries typically travel together, but I hope to plant some seeds. Any thoughts on this? Regardless, keep us in your prayers, that the Holy Spirit will guide our words and thoughts. God bless!

 

[catsrus]

3 came to my door, 2 “regular” missionaries and 1 “elder” (who looked to be all of 22 or 23) They had open a KJV Bible to which they pointed out St. John 10:16 and asked, “what do you make of this scripture?” Because I knew exactly where they intended to go with their loaded question, I answered, “Not what you make of it and I will not discuss random verse out of contex with you. Now, which of you wants to discuss the so-called great apostasy?” They thanked me for my time (all of 2 minutes) and left. Guess they didn’t want to talk about Catholic truth.
I do not think I was rude but they came to MY door so I believe I had the right to set the terms of the discussion, not them.

 

[tkdnick]

Is it safe to assume that since you know when they are coming that they have already made their “initial” contact? If so, the topic of the Holy Trinity seems to be a good one. LDS do not hold a similar view of Trinity, and it is clearly one of the most important doctrines of the Catholic church. Another one is Eucharist. And the Eucharist is one that can be pretty easily shown from the Bible. Good luck!!

 

[flameburns623]

Know your own faith. Know it very very well, including how to explain the more difficult and/or abstract ideas such as ‘trinity’ and ‘transubstantiation’, and how to support such ideas. Chances are you’ll get one shot only if you make it clear that you’re a Catholic and not seriously interested in exploring the LDS faith. Mormon missionaries are sent out to find ‘seekers’, not to debate with dissenters, and only a relatively small handful could hold a serious debate for very long anyhow. Their mission is as much a time of faith-building for them as an opportunity to bring Christ to others–those who complete a mission and remain true believers have pretty well received a lifetime innoculation against any attack on their faith.

Roman Catholics take a logical and philosophical approach to truth-finding. I think Mormons largely take an approach more akin to that which is taken by someone starting a business from scratch. A great many things go into starting a business, and some of them are rooted more in pride of accomplishement and ego than in whether or not a business really ‘makes sense’ or will make a good living. Often, one sees people start up businesses which no one expected to see succeed, and sometimes such businesses DO succeed.

I’ve been mulling this idea of Mormonism as an excercising in self-motivation and entrepreneurial spirit for a while now. I don’t think it is how the LDS church won converts throughout much of it’s first century, but I think that since the 1940’s or 1950’s it has been a strong feature of Mormonism. If I am hitting the mark, then it may well be that to make Catholicism appealing to many LDS, one needs to make the Catholic faith a challenge equal to the kinds of challenges which Mormon missionaries often present to ‘investigators’. Since this is a fairly new idea with me, and possibly not an especially fruitful one I may not be giving you very much concrete or usable help. Just understand that my sense of things is that Mormons are taking a different approach to religiosity that I think Catholics take.

 

[flameburns623]

Perhaps this will elaborate a bit on my somewhat fuzzy-headed previous post:

ldsmag.com/articles/041220test.html

This is from an on-line LDS daily e-zine I get. It’s ‘by’ Mormons, for Mormons’. I’m not asking anyone to make value judgements on this article. Just reflect on this: could you really imagine a Roman Catholic writing in quite this fashion? I think Catholics are wedded so deeply to the logic of Aristotle and to the pursuit of truth as an intellectual excercise that they would largely find ideas such as are found in this article unintelligible. Many seem wont to lay the charge of intellectual dishonesty at the feet of Latter-day Saints. I’m not certain this is wrong, but it begs the question. Mormons don’t deliberately set out to lie to themselves about truth. They somehow have come to believe that, at least with respect to religious truth, their pursuit of a ‘testimony’ is at least as good as the rigorous philososphical methods employed by Roman Catholics (and most Protestants as well).

And I think that only a few are really ‘touched’ or affected by trying to prove philosophically that subjective ‘knowledge’ can vary widely from person to person. Most Mormons, I think, are unconcerned that this might be the case. They seem almost to believe that once they have ‘willed’ a thing to be true, it has become true. And as you may notice from this article–they find great consolation and strength in that, somehow.

I’m not trying to hijack this thread: I am trying to point out that mere academic arguments may ‘confirm’ your LDS missionaries in their faith rather than plant a seed. While reason and argumentation are important–watch out that you do not employ such tactics to the hurt of your true goal, which is to raise some degree of honest doubt in the hearts and minds of these young men. You may not be able to merely ‘argue’ them out of their beliefs.

 

[tkdnick]

flameburns623:

Perhaps this will elaborate a bit on my somewhat fuzzy-headed previous post:

ldsmag.com/articles/041220test.html

Gosh, the author “knows, knows, knows” and yet there is no “evidence” She went from talking about God comforting her in distress to knowing that the LDS church has the fulness of the gospel. How does THAT work? How do you make tha jump? That connection? Guess I hold to strongly to logic and Aristotle…

 

[flameburns623]

tkdnick:

Gosh, the author “knows, knows, knows” and yet there is no “evidence” She went from talking about God comforting her in distress to knowing that the LDS church has the fulness of the gospel. How does THAT work? How do you make tha jump? That connection? Guess I hold to strongly to logic and Aristotle…

Nick:

On an intellectual level I agree with you. But that’s exactly my point: you ‘reason’ your way to knowledge, she ‘feels’ her way to knowledge. We can get oversly simplistic about that–how many Roman Catholic converts report that they ‘just felt the peace’ of being in a Roman Catholic Church for the first time? Or ‘just knew’ that Jesus was truly present in the Eucharist. Etcetera. And LDS apologetics certainly employ logic and evidence. But there seems to me to be a difference in the primacy of logic versus ‘felt truths’, and for the LDS, the ‘felt truths’ hold the primacy. For Catholics, the ‘felt truths’ must be tested by logic and reason. I suspect that any apologetic aimed at truly reaching the LDS needs to take that difference into consideration. To just blow it off is to relegate your apologetic to ineffectuality, except among those who are constitutionally predisposed to a rationalistic rather than a subjectivistic search for truth and knowledge.

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

awfulthings9:

Some Mormon missionaries are coming by later this week. First, let me say that I have the upmost respect for anyone who is sincerely seeking a true understanding of God, howevermuch I may disagree with Mormon doctrine. I’m not looking to start a stomp-on-the-Mormons thread, but I would like advise from anyone who has conversed with such missionaries recently. I don’t intend to be confrontational, but I am anxious to share the truth of Catholicism and have read quite a bit of Mormon literature and critiques. I don’t have any hopes of conversion, especially because of the safeguards against it in that the missionaries typically travel together, but I hope to plant some seeds. Any thoughts on this? Regardless, keep us in your prayers, that the Holy Spirit will guide our words and thoughts. God bless!

I told them I couldn’t accept their Morman books unless they sent them to Rome to be scrutinized by the theologians, and if they get past the Pope then get back to me.
Plus “Peter upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” are all you need.
So we don’t need to start a new Church, the one Jesus started is just fine,so if this is the Church Jesus started then thats good enough for me.
thanks for calling bye !

 

[tkdnick]

flameburns623:

Nick:
On an intellectual level I agree with you. But that’s exactly my point: you ‘reason’ your way to knowledge, she ‘feels’ her way to knowledge. We can get oversly simplistic about that–how many Roman Catholic converts report that they ‘just felt the peace’ of being in a Roman Catholic Church for the first time? Or ‘just knew’ that Jesus was truly present in the Eucharist. Etcetera. And LDS apologetics certainly employ logic and evidence. But there seems to me to be a difference in the primacy of logic versus ‘felt truths’, and for the LDS, the ‘felt truths’ hold the primacy. For Catholics, the ‘felt truths’ must be tested by logic and reason. I suspect that any apologetic aimed at truly reaching the LDS needs to take that difference into consideration. To just blow it off is to relegate your apologetic to ineffectuality, except among those who are constitutionally predisposed to a rationalistic rather than a subjectivistic search for truth and knowledge.

I know all that, it just doesn’t make sense to me. I realize that’s the point…but we spend all our lives being taught to search for things logically and that doesn’t really come into play here. I even know some LDS who are VERY logical people, but it’s like they push all that out the window when it comes to their faith. I just don’t UNDERSTAND that!!!

how many Roman Catholic converts report that they ‘just felt the peace’ of being in a Roman Catholic Church

I’m one of those! I “felt” it! And I still feel it! But that’s not enough, I have to know it too (really know it). It’s way too easy for feelings to change or “mess” with you. They’re not constant. In Acts and some of St. Paul’s letters people are commended FOR searching scriptures and looking for evidence. Guess they just ignore that huh? That must be one of those things that was changed in the Bible by our church.

 

[tkdnick]

On a side note. I had a wonderful conversation with 2 missionaries one Saturday. We talked about how to communicate with God (praying); looked at some very general scripture verses; talked about a friend of mine who is LDS. They offered me the BoM, which I declined of course noting my Catholic life. At the end of the conversation they said thank you and said if I ever have any questions about their faith that my friend would be a good resource. Never saw em again.

 

[DaveBj]

Ask to see a copy of the Book of Mormon in the original language. It would help if you had a Hebrew OT and a Greek NT to show them.

Bible names, especially the names of the three known angels, are not meaningless strings of sounds, but statements: Raphael = “God has healed,” Gabriel = “man of God,” and Michael = “who is like God.” Ask them what the name Moroni means, and in what language.

DaveBj

 

[Katholikos]

Every Catholic needs a copy of When Mormons Call, Answering Mormon Missionaries at Your Door by Isaiah Bennett, available from Catholic Answers.

Bennett was a Catholic priest, and even he got sucked into Mormonism. Sanity returned, and so did he – to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. No longer a priest, he uses his mistake to help others avoid his own error.

Also by Isaiah Bennett, Inside Mormonism, What Mormons Really Believe, also available from Catholic Answers.

Articles available online from Isaiah Bennett:

INSIDE A MORMON TEMPLE ewtn.com/library/answers/insidtem.htm

THE MORMON CHRIST
This Rock, September, 1999
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909toc.asp

JMJ Jay

 

[Tmaque]

Speaking as an ex-Mormon who served two years on an LDS mission, let me say that you simply can’t use logic to get them to question their faith. For Mormons the subjective religious experience is what it’s all about. When they get a “testimony” based on a subjective feeling it becomes, for them, objective truth! The church and the teachings of the church are set up that way.

The best way, I’ve found to “get to” LDS people (almost all of my family and many close friends) is to follow the admonition of St Francis. “Preach the Gospel always. When necessary, use words.” I know this isn’t helpful in your particular circumstance. The best thing you can do to get them thinking is to tell them you have prayed about the Catholic church and God gave you such a strong feeling about it that you “know” it is true. I don’t know if that has happened with you or not. But, I’m sure you’ve prayed and asked God to guide you and I’m sure you’ve had experiences where you’ve had intense feelings about the truth of the Catholic church.

Keep in mind that the word “know” to a Mormon has a different meaning than it does to you as a Catholic. As long as you feel very strongly that the Catholic church is God’s true church you wouldn’t be lying, you would only be speaking their language. If you could plant a little seed of doubt about their methodology for finding truth, it would be a huge step in the right direction.

 

[tkdnick]

Katholikos:

Every Catholic needs a copy of When Mormons Call, Answering Mormon Missionaries at Your Door by Isaiah Bennett, available from Catholic Answers.

Bennett was a Catholic priest, and even he got sucked into Mormonism. Sanity returned, and so did he – to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. No longer a priest, he uses his mistake to help others avoid his own error.

Also by Isaiah Bennett, Inside Mormonism, What Mormons Really Believe, also available from Catholic Answers.

I have both those books. They are quite good, and are very respectful throughout.

 

[tkdnick]

Tmaque:

The best thing you can do to get them thinking is to tell them you have prayed about the Catholic church and God gave you such a strong feeling about it that you “know” it is true. I don’t know if that has happened with you or not. But, I’m sure you’ve prayed and asked God to guide you and I’m sure you’ve had experiences where you’ve had intense feelings about the truth of the Catholic church.

Keep in mind that the word “know” to a Mormon has a different meaning than it does to you as a Catholic. As long as you feel very strongly that the Catholic church is God’s true church you wouldn’t be lying, you would only be speaking their language. If you could plant a little seed of doubt about their methodology for finding truth, it would be a huge step in the right direction.

So if I “know” my church is true, and they “know” their church is true…Who’s right??? (I obviously know the answer to this)

 

[Tmaque]

tkdnick:

So if I “know” my church is true, and they “know” their church is true…Who’s right??? (I obviously know the answer to this)

As I stated previously “If you could plant a little seed of doubt about their methodology for finding truth, it would be a huge step in the right direction.” You wouldn’t be trying to convince them the Catholic church is correct, you’d be trying to show them their methodology for finding truth is possibly flawed.

I KNOW how they think. Coming at them with logic doesn’t work unless they can see that logic is a better means for finding truth than a feeling. The fact is, almost none of them believe that so coming at them with logic right out of the gate is a huge waste of time.

 

[tkdnick]

Tmaque:

As I stated previously “If you could plant a little seed of doubt about their methodology for finding truth, it would be a huge step in the right direction.” You wouldn’t be trying to convince them the Catholic church is correct, you’d be trying to show them their methodology for finding truth is possibly flawed.

I KNOW how they think. Coming at them with logic doesn’t work unless they can see that logic is a better means for finding truth than a feeling. The fact is, almost none of them believe that so coming at them with logic right out of the gate is a huge waste of time.

The other thing I’ve noticed in talking with LDS in general is that they take any dissention from their beliefs as a personal attack. If you question them about something in their faith, they take it presonally…even if it’s an honest question.

 

[catholic-rcia]

If you have two missionaries sitting at the same table as you, what is it that you have to offer them as a Catholic? What is it that you could offer that they would want? What words would you use? What would you say about Jesus that could pierce their hearts? They have a series of lessons. What lessons do we have as Catholics? For a Church that started out, with 12 Apostles proclaiming Christ death and his resurrection where are we now when it comes to proclaiming Christ to others we do not know? I knocked on twenty five doors last week. I found 2 Catholics that do not attend Mass here in Utah. One that attended a few times. The other not once.

I spoke to two missionaries that were riding by on their bikes. I asked them if they have ever attended a Catholic Mass. They both said no. I asked them if they were going to restore something, a Church say, would they want to know about the Church that they are restoring directly from the source. They said yes. (a lesson could be offered here) I asked them again if they had ever been to a Catholic Mass. They said no.

I asked them if they could ask a Catholic a question what would it be? They said they had none. I asked again, …none they said, and then I asked again. One of the young men asked me if we worship the Pope and is he a prophet in our Church. I told them that he is a sinner like I am a sinner, saved by the Grace of God. That it is only God that we worship. I told them that he is a very Holy man chosen by the Church to lead the Church. But that he stands in the line of confession like everyone else. They asked if he receives revelations from God. I told them that he has received the same revelations that I have received. They asked what revelations. I told them the revelation of who God is, who Christ is, who we are. That at Pentecost the Apostles received the Holy Spirit to guide them to truth, the same spirit I myself received at my Baptism. They asked, then why is the Pope their if he does not receive new revelation? I told them that all was fulfilled in Christ, what else do we need to know? It is the revelation of Him that is all important. I told them that the Pope is there to protect this revelation from those that would like to change the revelation of who God is, who Christ is to a Christian.
Hope that helps a bit

But what is most important is this. I now know of two Catholics who need to get back to the Mass. I do not know how or if I can help in this, as this is all new to me. But with Gods blessing, if I have it, I will try for God. We need to all go out and knock. Not to bring others to our Church because this is Gods sole work. But to help God in His work. We need to light the Holy Fire and go out and spread it. If just a few were called to this at each Parish around the Country there would be a great Catholic renewal. I pray for this. People do not expect us to knock on their door. You can have fun with it, they are very receiving when they find out you are Catholic. Catholic Answers has a great outreach tri-fold that can be given to break the ice. Make it an invitation to our Mass. Can you imagine yourself going out and doing this work for Christ?
What better calling could there be? It is the great commision and we are the real thing are we not? Then coming back after a few hours and sharing the stories with each other. Learning by direct experiance.
God Bless

http://www.catholic.com/library/gods_love_for_you.asp

 

[Tanais]

Funny, my sister recently joined the mormon church. Fun for me I say. Anyways, I found the best argument is that against the foundational doctrine, i.e. the doctrine of the Great Apostasy. without it goes the whole notion for the need of a restoration and also it gives a testament to the validity of the Church’s claims. Basically use the writings of the early Church Fathers and show how there was no break in tradition and suddenly the church totally fell into apostasy. Funny also I just wrote an essay about this topic too, I gave it to my mormon sister, fun times… I hope that helps.

 

[catholic-rcia]

,Know what the keys to the kingdom of heaven are:

http://catholic-rcia.com/pages/Catechism_forgive.html

Ask what they are? After you get an answer let them know that the keys are forgiveness and reconciliation. That these keys will be with us until the end of time. As to the Apostasy, would Jesus ever remove these keys? If he did, that would be a human response. What kind of God would do that to his fallen children?

Another good place to go is “by the grace of God go I”
That our good works come from allowing God to work through us. Before I became Catholic, as a Mormon I thought the good works came from me. I once gave a homeless man a coat. It made “me” feel so good. I told everybody. As a Catholic it is so wonderful to know that it is God’s work through us that gets the glory. God promted me to give that man a coat. Jesus was perfect in doing the will of God looking for no earthy or heavenly rewards. It is a great way to speak of Trinity. It makes God so much bigger. It makes life so much sweeter.
Point at that God is Ceater we are Ceated. He is truth, we can only come to know this truth and be with this truth forever. Christ is the light, we on the other hand can come into this light and live with this light forever.

http://catholic-rcia.com/pages/Apostacy.html