Mormon Threads

[tkdnick]

In case everyone else has missed it…the moderators seem to be ending several threads that discuss LDS beliefs. I would say it is because these threads tend to get so off topic. A word of advise…don’t jump into a thread throwing a gazillion questions or challenges that don’t involve the thread topic! If you have a question you wish to pose to an LDS member (or vise versa), then start a new thread on that topic! Then maybe we will be able to see the threads stay open longer.

 

[crazyage3]

Gee I was wondering what was going on with some of the threads! Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Thank you Tkdnick and thanks to FCEGM for the answer to my question on Mary. I copied the Immaculate Conception and Assumption site that FCEGM suggested and will read it with my husband tonight(actually I read it already). It does answer my question about where it appears in the Bible(it doesn’t) and where the belief originated that Mary did not die but ascended into Heaven. Very interesting, although I am not sure I understand it and will have to have some of it explained in more detail after my husband and I discuss it. Sometimes I think I am teaching him his own religion. I have to tell him sometimes what he believes because he gets confused and thinks he believes the same as I do. I say “No that is not what you believe, you believe this or this”. He believes the Book of Mormon is true and I have to tell him he can’t believe that, so he says " well I find it very interesting then". This forum helps me to explain the differences between the two religions to him, so it is very helpful. He is very devout and went to Holy Thursday service last night as well as confession and then there was the Solemn Service of the Passion, and Veneration of the Cross and Holy Communion today at noon which he went to. He certainly keeps me busy taking him back and forth to all of his meetings. Somehow in all of his religious training from growing up in the Catholic orphanage up to now when he is 70 years old, he has missed the intricate points of Catholicism and
instead of him answering my questions about his religion, I have to research and tell him the answers.
Sorry, to complain, but it is frustrating to me. Thank you for all of your help…
BJ

 

[crazyage3]

Sometimes we as Catholics just accept certain things with Faith!! We dont even give it any thought until someone asks us! I think they were kind of right in saying if Mary were buried somewhere, we’d know about it. And it makes sense.

 

[wademann]

Do you think that it is good to have blind faith?

 

[Church_Militant]

wademann:

Do you think that it is good to have blind faith?

Catholics really don’t believe in “blind faith”. We’re some of the most questioning people that you’ll ever meet. I would however say that we are no more prone to “blind faith” in anything than someone who accepts some of the Mormon (or other) beliefs. A great many people believe whatever they are told as kids or have heard from their pulpits (even some Catholics). That is not smart IMO. I am Catholic because I searched out everything and have rejected those things that I find wanting. My faith is anything but blind.
Pax vobiscum, :irish1:

 

[FightingFat]

wademann:

Do you think that it is good to have blind faith?

I have a really good friend who is LDS. What amazes me about him is the sinceriy of his faith. He really wants me to become LDS because he really, sincerly believes that he is right, as I’m sure you do wademann. Now I do not doubt the sincerity of LDS beliefs, but when we discuss scripture, he constantly ends up defending. Defending this thing that didn’t happen, or that strange idea, or this thing that was said. There is just so much of it.

Like LDS, Catholics bring up their fanilies to be Catholic. You go along with it. It’s nice. Then someone asks you a question and you can’t answer it and you panic.

My eight year old son is all questions at the moment. Why do we cover the icons during lent, why do we go to mass, why do we have communion, why this, why that. It’s a good way to check that you understand. I have also found that when I am asked a question I don’t know an answer to, I find out, and it always makes sense to me.

So I say, it may not be good to have blind faith, but how do we stop it occurring if we bring up our children to be faithfull to our traditions?

 

[Ahimsa]

FightingFat:

So I say, it may not be good to have blind faith, but how do we stop it occurring if we bring up our children to be faithfull to our traditions?

Could one teach a child the reasons and logic behind the traditions?

Would it be a sin to say to your child, “I believe that CC is the true Church, but you might come to a different conclusion when you turn 18”?

 

[FightingFat]

That’s all well and good, but my point is, I study a bit every day, and I don’t have all the answers. How can I expect my son to know?

 

[wademann]

Trust me there are people, in all religions, that can out debate other people in different religions. Most people don’t study their own religion (including myself) as much as they should, let alone trying to be an expert on someone else’s religion. I believe that we were all given an inate desire to seek out the truth, by our Heavenly Father. I agree as kids we just go along with our families beliefs, but eventually there has to be a personal desire to know the truth, for there to be a true conversion, to any religion. Ultimately we all reach a point in our lifes (if we haven’t gone too far over the edge) that we ask “where did we come from, why are we here, and where are we going?” I am curious to know the what the Catholic’s believe, about where we came from? I also am curious to know, that since I think you believe in one heaven, and one hell, where is the cutoff line? Can you miss it by one sin? I believe that if you put your faith in the debates, of man you might be persuaded to go down the wrong path. I believe the only way to know the truth is to study, fast and pray sincerely…The more that you live a Christ-like life the the stonger the promptings of the Holy Ghost will be, to guide you to the truth. I have studied the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, initially to prove it wrong, and have found it to have the most logical and detailed answers to life’s questions. Debate is fun, but don’t believe everything you hear on these sites. Study it for yourself and the Holy Ghost will reveal the truth to you, line upon line, precept upon precept. Sorry so long.

 

[BDawg]

Hi everyone,

I am a Mormon, and I certainly don’t think my faith is “blind” or based solely on “feelings.” However, the fact is that one is supposed to obtain spiritual knowledge by the Holy Spirit, rather than by argument, scholarly or otherwise.

“And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Cor. 2:4-5)

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:14)

And, like it or not, the presence of the Holy Spirit is often accompanied by intense “feelings.”

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22-23)

So if I prayed about whether my religious beliefs were true, and I had an experience where I felt pure spiritual knowledge flowing into me accompanied by intense feelings of joy and peace, what should I do? Should I chuck it out the window? Or should I keep it in my stock of bona fide religious experiences that I draw from when I am deciding what to believe?

On the other hand, if you were to tell me that these kinds of experiences could be self-induced, so I shouldn’t put all my eggs in that basket, I would wholeheartedly agree. Joseph Smith said the following about how one grows into the principle of revelation:

“A person may prifit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Sprit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 151)

I have had lots of little experiences like this that convince me that God really does speak to me, sometimes. Again, should I throw all this out? Or are these experiences something I have to honestly deal with when making my choice of religion?

Some of you might also be surprised to find out that I can point to quite a number of external things that I believe provide evidence for my faith. These include facts about early Christian history, recent biblical scholarship, archaeological finds, and so forth.

I do not consider any of this to be conclusive proof that everyone must accept, but when I add it all up in my head, it seems quite convincing to me.

BDawg

 

[FightingFat]

wademann:

Trust me there are people, in all religions, that can out debate other people in different religions. Most people don’t study their own religion (including myself) as much as they should, let alone trying to be an expert on someone else’s religion. I believe that we were all given an inate desire to seek out the truth, by our Heavenly Father. I agree as kids we just go along with our families beliefs, but eventually there has to be a personal desire to know the truth, for there to be a true conversion, to any religion. Ultimately we all reach a point in our lifes (if we haven’t gone too far over the edge) that we ask “where did we come from, why are we here, and where are we going?” I am curious to know the what the Catholic’s believe, about where we came from?

You mean the whole spirit children thing?

I also am curious to know, that since I think you believe in one heaven, and one hell, where is the cutoff line? Can you miss it by one sin?

You have spirit prison, this is a similar teaching to purgatory.

I believe that if you put your faith in the debates, of man you might be persuaded to go down the wrong path. I believe the only way to know the truth is to study, fast and pray sincerely…The more that you live a Christ-like life the the stonger the promptings of the Holy Ghost will be, to guide you to the truth.

Yeah, but you have to listen to common sense too don’t you? If you look at the two historys and try to be objective, LDS makes little sense. Also all the things you say are ways to know the truth as a testified to by Catholics as Mormons. Why then are Mormons right and Catholics wrong?

I have studied the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, initially to prove it wrong, and have found it to have the most logical and detailed answers to life’s questions. Debate is fun, but don’t believe everything you hear on these sites. Study it for yourself and the Holy Ghost will reveal the truth to you, line upon line, precept upon precept. Sorry so long.

I have studied it, not without some affection it has to be said, but I find my faith increased and my love of Catholicism redoubled.

How do you deal with issues like the Book of Abraham being translated by Egyptologists and them finding a completly mundane translation, completely differemt to that of JS?

 

[FightingFat]

BDawg:

Hi everyone,

I am a Mormon, and I certainly don’t think my faith is “blind” or based solely on “feelings.” However, the fact is that one is supposed to obtain spiritual knowledge by the Holy Spirit, rather than by argument, scholarly or otherwise.

I think this faith is common place. It is an argument I have heard used by LDS, JW’s and Baptists I have conversed with. Are they all recieving contradictory messages from the Holy Spirit?

“And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Cor. 2:4-5)

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:14)

And, like it or not, the presence of the Holy Spirit is often accompanied by intense “feelings.”

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22-23)

So if I prayed about whether my religious beliefs were true, and I had an experience where I felt pure spiritual knowledge flowing into me accompanied by intense feelings of joy and peace, what should I do? Should I chuck it out the window? Or should I keep it in my stock of bona fide religious experiences that I draw from when I am deciding what to believe?

I can honestly attest that I have had the same feelings, strongest when I worked with handicapped children in Lourdes. What does this mean?

On the other hand, if you were to tell me that these kinds of experiences could be self-induced, so I shouldn’t put all my eggs in that basket, I would wholeheartedly agree. Joseph Smith said the following about how one grows into the principle of revelation:

“A person may prifit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Sprit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 151)

I have had lots of little experiences like this that convince me that God really does speak to me, sometimes. Again, should I throw all this out? Or are these experiences something I have to honestly deal with when making my choice of religion?

I think anyone who sincerly calls God is answered by God on some level. Anyone who has good in his heart will receive the Holy Spirit.
Which Church you belong to does not exclude you from God necessarily, after all, demographics are not choices we are able to make before we are born (at least not to the best of my knowledge). But when seeking, the truth becomes extremely important IMO. It is one thing to study what is given you about another faith, it is another to objectively strive to understand what it contains.

Some of you might also be surprised to find out that I can point to quite a number of external things that I believe provide evidence for my faith. These include facts about early Christian history, recent biblical scholarship, archaeological finds, and so forth.

Do tell!

I do not consider any of this to be conclusive proof that everyone must accept, but when I add it all up in my head, it seems quite convincing to me.

BDawg

And ultimately, that’s al that matters I suppose.

 

[BDawg]

wademann:

I also am curious to know, that since I think you believe in one heaven, and one hell, where is the cutoff line? Can you miss it by one sin?

Hi Wademann,

Fellow Mormon BDawg speaking. A Catholic friend once showed me in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says that there are degrees of reward in heaven. Also, they believe that people who are “invincibly ignorant,” (i.e., they didn’t have a proper chance to accept the RCC) will not necessarily be damned. Therefore, while they don’t have a concept of three main degrees of glory, with gradations in each, I think the overall effect is not so far different from our doctrine. No wonder Joseph Smith said,

“The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p.375)

BDawg

 

[BDawg]

FightingFat:

How do you deal with issues like the Book of Abraham being translated by Egyptologists and them finding a completly mundane translation, completely differemt to that of JS?

Hi FF,

If you really want to get the rundown on this issue, Jeff Lindsay has some excellent pages on the topic. See:

jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham.shtml

I think perhaps you have only heard snippets of one side of the controversy. For example, you may not know that the fragments found are only a small fraction of the papyri Joseph Smith had, and they do not fit several eyewitness descriptions of the papyri JS claimed contained the Book of Abraham.

This is quite a complex issue, with decent points scored on both sides, so be prepared for a long read.

BDawg

 

[BDawg]

FightingFat:

I think this faith is common place. It is an argument I have heard used by LDS, JW’s and Baptists I have conversed with. Are they all recieving contradictory messages from the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit testifies to the truth. These people believe in Jesus as the Christ, so shouldn’t the Holy Spirit testify to that? All religions have some truth, and LDS do not believe we have a monopoly on it. We also do not believe that we have all the answers, yet, either.

In addition, I already said that people can have self-induced religious experiences. This is why we feel no responsibility to explain or explain away the experiences of others. We are responsible for our own, and we invite others to give it a try, as well.

FightingFat:

I can honestly attest that I have had the same feelings, strongest when I worked with handicapped children in Lourdes. What does this mean?

Perhaps it means that God approves of you working with handicapped children.

FightingFat:

I think anyone who sincerly calls God is answered by God on some level. Anyone who has good in his heart will receive the Holy Spirit.
Which Church you belong to does not exclude you from God necessarily, after all, demographics are not choices we are able to make before we are born (at least not to the best of my knowledge). But when seeking, the truth becomes extremely important IMO. It is one thing to study what is given you about another faith, it is another to objectively strive to understand what it contains.

We are in complete agreement about this. When I try hard to understand another faith, I almost invariably come to the conclusion that they aren’t as stupid as I once thought.

FightingFat:

Do tell!

If you are interested, I don’t want to bomb you with information. What would you like to discuss?

BDawg

 

[wademann]

This is exactly what I mean. I would have a difficult time answering these questions, without exhaustive research. If you had a debate with me everyday most of you would walk away feeling pretty good. I only hope to be as knowledgable and articulate as BDAWG some day, but there are probably a few of you are stumped by BDAWG’s information and in turn there is someone you know, that could make BDAWG work a little. I have heard and read alot of the anti-mormom stuff, some of it very convincing, and there were times, during the 6 years that I was checking it out, that I let it stop me for awhile, but was always pulled eventually to the truth. I know that there are times that I felt the spirit before I was living the way I should, and now I have more of a constant feeling of peace and happiness, but if I start slacking, by missing church, not keeping the sabbath day holy, not praying regularly, not reading scriptures often ect… I will not feel the spirit as strongly. I believe that if you truly reseached the LDS faith, while you might not be converted, you would have a totally different perspective.

 

[FightingFat]

BDawg:

Hi FF,

If you really want to get the rundown on this issue, Jeff Lindsay has some excellent pages on the topic. See:

jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham.shtml

I think perhaps you have only heard snippets of one side of the controversy. For example, you may not know that the fragments found are only a small fraction of the papyri Joseph Smith had, and they do not fit several eyewitness descriptions of the papyri JS claimed contained the Book of Abraham.

This is quite a complex issue, with decent points scored on both sides, so be prepared for a long read.

BDawg

Hi BDawg!

Of course, that website was the first I was directed to when discussing this issue several years ago. I found that Lindsay’s article was in fact quite damning in that it concludes that the fragments were indeed translated correctly, but JS must have seen something that the egyptologists could not…To me a wafer thin escape do you not agree?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Ahimsa:

Could one teach a child the reasons and logic behind the traditions?

Would it be a sin to say to your child, “I believe that CC is the true Church, but you might come to a different conclusion when you turn 18”?

IMHO, that is much to be desired - the reason it is unlikely to happen, is the stress on baptism as an anecdote to Original Sin; the emphasis on OS was one of the reasons that it became usual, and eventually, compulsory, to baptise infants.​

The drawback with baptising infants is that it then becomes a sin to reject a baptism which it was not in one’s own choice to accept in the first place; and if the young have to be Catholic to avoid committing apostasy, they may well not much care for the religion they never asked for in the first place; and that can lead to religious *ennui; *they’ll be Catholics in name only. Which then means that the Church becomes full of unwilling or non-practicing Christians. Which makes a nonsense of the nature of the Church. ##

 

[BDawg]

FightingFat:

Hi BDawg!

Of course, that website was the first I was directed to when discussing this issue several years ago. I found that Lindsay’s article was in fact quite damning in that it concludes that the fragments were indeed translated correctly, but JS must have seen something that the egyptologists could not…To me a wafer thin escape do you not agree?

Like I said, part of the controversy is over whether the papyri found were specifically the ones that JS claimed contained the Book of Abraham. The eyewitness accounts militate against this conclusion, and if so, don’t you think the translation of the fragments that were found is beside the point?

I think the argument you remember was presented as one possible solution–not the only one, or even the best. In any case, there is quite a bit of evidence that the Book of Abraham is based on authentic ancient traditions about the life of Abraham that are not included in the Bible. Also, it turns out that all three vignettes included with the Book of Abraham have ancient connections with Abraham traditions. So, while there are tough problems for LDS to deal with, there is something really odd going on here that is difficult to explain away. There is enough there that I feel very comfortable putting the question on the shelf and seeing how the research goes.

BDawg