Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

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Fatboys said:
So if God wanted to use water instead of wine, he could not do it? And what is the percentage of water in either of them? It is symbolic.
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Regardless of the fact that wine is partially composed of water, wine is much more than just water, and wine is still a different drink from water. Water is composed of oxygen and hydrogen; would you be comfortable altering your ordinance so that you just inhale oxygen instead of drinking water?

The point is that God did not want to use water instead of wine or He would have said so. Instead every indication is that Christ intended that wine (or at least unfermented grape juice) be used.

And even the Eucharist were merely “symbolic” (and in fact it is symbolic, and it also is what is symbolized) being faithful to the manner (in its essentials) in which the sacred mysteries, or ordinances, are handed down to us is part of being faithful to God. If it doesn’t matter what is used in the ordinances, why does not the LDS baptize with lemonade, or petroleum?
 
Schism_hater said:
The point is that God did not want to use water instead of wine or He would have said so. Instead every indication is that Christ intended that wine (or at least unfermented grape juice) be used.
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I’m going to disagree with the unfermented grape juice. Here’s why:

– Israel had, and still does have, growing seasons. Grapes are always harvested between late August and early October.
– Passover is in the spring, about six months after the grape harvest.
– Very few people in Jesus’ day had access to reliable refrigerators, and FedEx hadn’t yet started overnight deliveries to Jerusalem.
– Grapes that are unrefrigerated will rot fast, and unfermented grape juice spoils even faster. Just ask the mother of any two-year-old who hid his sippy cup under the back seat of the car.
– The only way the Jews had to preserve the grape juice was to ferment it.
– The bible makes no report of Jesus transforming water into wine at the Last Supper. That miracle occurred about three years earlier. Furthermore, the apostles never performed the water-to-wine miracle when preparing to celebrate the Lord’s supper.

The only reasonable conclusion is that Jesus shared fermented wine at the Last Supper.
 
Jesus also had no lamb at the Last Supper.

Talk about time…Abraham was about to sacrifice his son Isaac. Then Angel Gabriel appeared to him and prevented him from doing so. However, the Angel pointed to a ram stuck hanging in a bush and it was this ram that was instead sacrificed to the Lord.

Christ was well aware of our finite concept of linear time. He chose a specific time and year, He appointed His apostles at the aforementioned time before He met them. The Apostles attest to that in their writings, and that they alone were chosen to be the actual witnesses of “His Majesty”, their terms.

Our Lord came to this earth at the Constellation of the Ram – Aries. And He was to become the Sacrificial Lamb for us. His time of death at the Passover…as well as He passing into heaven in His ascension also fulfilled He being the eternal High Priest, fulfilling the Day of Atonement as well.

On the Day of the Atonement, once a year, only the High Priest was allowed into the sanctuary to bless the inner sanctuary of the Mercy Seat with sprinkled blood of sacrificed lambs.

On Our Lord’s Glorious Ascension into heaven, He crossed through the door to enter the altar of the One True God, the Heavenly Father, to stand triumphant, glorified and also crucified and wounded, to be mystically united to the perpetual sacrifice of the altar here below.

So when we receive the Eucharist we are in fact receiving the Risen, Glorified Lord. This reception is the greatest act and work as a Christian we can do on earth, because then we are joined with Our Lord and Redeemer in the defeat of sin in the world.

I cannot see any symbolic communion even coming close to what we have in the Eucharist.

The Mass is the spiritual ‘atomic bomb’ against the forces of evil in this world. If we cannot go to Mass, we need to daily receive spiritual communions and adore our Lord at the altar in our parishes.
 
Nan_S said:
I’m going to disagree with the unfermented grape juice. Here’s why:

– Israel had, and still does have, growing seasons. Grapes are always harvested between late August and early October.
– Passover is in the spring, about six months after the grape harvest.
– Very few people in Jesus’ day had access to reliable refrigerators, and FedEx hadn’t yet started overnight deliveries to Jerusalem.
– Grapes that are unrefrigerated will rot fast, and unfermented grape juice spoils even faster. Just ask the mother of any two-year-old who hid his sippy cup under the back seat of the car.
– The only way the Jews had to preserve the grape juice was to ferment it.
– The bible makes no report of Jesus transforming water into wine at the Last Supper. That miracle occurred about three years earlier. Furthermore, the apostles never performed the water-to-wine miracle when preparing to celebrate the Lord’s supper.

The only reasonable conclusion is that Jesus shared fermented wine at the Last Supper.
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Not to mention that wine was and is the drink used at Passover, and that is exactly what they were celebrating at the Last Supper. Now, instead of a sacrificial lamb, we would eat the flesh and drink the blood of the true Lamb of God. Scott Hahn made the point in “The Lamb’s Supper” that, and I am paraphrasing here, when the time for Passover came, if one of the children said “I don’t like lamb” and instead ate little matzo cookies in the shape of a lamb, they would have awakened the next morning to find their elder brother dead.

Christ’s flesh “is real food” and his blood is “real drink”. He used wine, therefore we use wine. The priest does what He did and uses what He used because it is the Last Supper, along with His sacrifice, that is made present to us in the Eucharist.
 
The sacraments are concrete signs…no subjective relativism here, that are outward signs of the inner life of sanctifying grace ministered by no one other than Christ Himself.

The priest or we in an emergency may be the outward instruments to baptize someone into the mystical Body of Christ. But it is Christ Himself Who is the one Who makes Himself available to us, and incorporates us into Himself.
 
Here’s what gets me: from The Doctrine and Covenants (Section 89 LDS, 86 RLDS, the so-called “Word of Wisdom”) "That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make."

Why the Mormons chose water is beyond me. The RLDS use grape juice (still not wine, but at least it’s a grape product) A few groups The Church of Jesus Christ (Monongahela, PA) and the Church of Christ, Temple lot use real wine. But, it’s still symbolic.
 
batman1973 said:
Here’s what gets me: from The Doctrine and Covenants (Section 89 LDS, 86 RLDS, the so-called “Word of Wisdom”) "That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make."

Why the Mormons chose water is beyond me.
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The justification for changing from wine to water comes from the Mormon belief that God continues to make new revelations.

First, note the verse says “should” and not “must.” That leaves the door wide open. Next note that it says “of your own make.” When you’re not allowed to sub-contract production to the local heathens, that opens up a whole host of new issues. First you have to procure vineyards. Next hope the crops don’t fail. Then try to produce, bottle, store, and ship enough for everyone.

The in-house production of wine, even though just intended for sacramental use, was a huge temptation for the workmen and contrary to the whole temperance movement.

I’m sure it was a big relief when the Mormon leadership announced that God would be just fine with using water instead of wine.
 
Nan_S said:
The justification for changing from wine to water comes from the Mormon belief that God continues to make new revelations.

First, note the verse says “should” and not “must.” That leaves the door wide open. Next note that it says “of your own make.” When you’re not allowed to sub-contract production to the local heathens, that opens up a whole host of new issues. First you have to procure vineyards. Next hope the crops don’t fail. Then try to produce, bottle, store, and ship enough for everyone.

The in-house production of wine, even though just intended for sacramental use, was a huge temptation for the workmen and contrary to the whole temperance movement.

I’m sure it was a big relief when the Mormon leadership announced that God would be just fine with using water instead of wine.
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The Mormons established vineyards in Utah specifically to provide their own wines as based on Smith’s “revelation”. There is one less than a mile from my house.

I’ve never seen, what Fatboys would call, any official Mormon doctrine (that is in their scriptures) on who or why they stopped using wine and started using water.
 
Nan_S said:
I’m going to disagree with the unfermented grape juice. Here’s why:

– Israel had, and still does have, growing seasons. Grapes are always harvested between late August and early October.
– Passover is in the spring, about six months after the grape harvest.
– Very few people in Jesus’ day had access to reliable refrigerators, and FedEx hadn’t yet started overnight deliveries to Jerusalem.
– Grapes that are unrefrigerated will rot fast, and unfermented grape juice spoils even faster. Just ask the mother of any two-year-old who hid his sippy cup under the back seat of the car.
– The only way the Jews had to preserve the grape juice was to ferment it.
– The bible makes no report of Jesus transforming water into wine at the Last Supper. That miracle occurred about three years earlier. Furthermore, the apostles never performed the water-to-wine miracle when preparing to celebrate the Lord’s supper.

The only reasonable conclusion is that Jesus shared fermented wine at the Last Supper.
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I wrote with the limited purpose of confronting Fatboys with reasons why water is clearly not appropriate. I am Orthodox and we use wine; I wasn’t making any argument for using grape juice intead of wine. That’s an entirely different discussion. Please.
 
Schism_hater said:
I wrote with the limited purpose of confronting Fatboys with reasons why water is clearly not appropriate. I am Orthodox and we use wine; I wasn’t making any argument for using grape juice intead of wine. That’s an entirely different discussion. Please.
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I apologize for the too-rapid response. I was recollecting the times when I butted heads with fundamentalists who insist that the Catholics are wrong for using fermented wine because supposedly Jesus drank only “new” wine. They wouldn’t back down until I proved that there were times when Jesus had to have consumed the fermented variety.

ETA: Some Mormons also circulate the “only unfermented grape juice” myth.
 
RebeccaJ said:
I’ve never seen, what Fatboys would call, any official Mormon doctrine (that is in their scriptures) on who or why they stopped using wine and started using water.
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Check D&C 27:1-2:
The Lord revealed, “that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins”
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According to some sources the use of wine was dropped as a temperance issue. Others say it had to do with the source of the wine being suspect; that the wine may have been poisoned.
 
Nan_S said:
Check D&C 27:1-2:
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Yes, that is the same scripture that prompted Mormons to plant vineyards in Deseret (present day Utah/Idaho/Arizona/Nevada).

lds.org seems to be down at the moment, but if you continue reading past verse 2, that is where the directive is given to use wine of their own making.

So, they were using wine of their own making according to this scripture, and then for some unknown and undefined reason, stopped.

Some of the vineyards are still here. 🤷
According to some sources the use of wine was dropped as a temperance issue. Others say it had to do with the source of the wine being suspect; that the wine may have been poisoned.
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Historical sources show that by 1875, UT was producing about 1500 barrels of wine. Not bad, and certainly enough to provide wine for sacrament usage.
 
No kidding, now that is a piece of history. So thats Joe Smith speaking for Jesus?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Historical sources show that by 1875, UT was producing about 1500 barrels of wine. Not bad, and certainly enough to provide wine for sacrament usage.
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In 1875 the problem was not the volume produced. It was the horse-and-carriage distribution system. To have sufficient approved wine on hand for continuous routine use, a ward located more than a day’s ride away would have to stockpile.
 
Nan_S said:
In 1875 the problem was not the volume produced. It was the horse-and-carriage distribution system. To have sufficient approved wine on hand for continuous routine use, a ward located more than a day’s ride away would have to stockpile.
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Interesting idea. It would explain why there were vineyards/wineries that sprouted up around the major towns of Deseret. I can’t see how supplying towns further away would be any more logistically limiting than providing them with basic needs, such that you would buy at a mercantile.
 
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