Mormons, the apostacy, and 2 Thes 2-3

[FightingFat]

In a conversion with a Mormon, I have been quoted 2 Thes 2:3 as a proof that despite Jesus words to the contrary “And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it” (Mt 16:18-19) “Behold, I will be with you always, even until the end of the world” (Mt 28:20); “The Father…will give you another Advocate to be with you always” (John 14:16); “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all I have told you” (John 14:26); “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth” (John 16:13). An apostacy was on the cards.

In response, I have replied that this passage does not demonstrate an apostacy thus- "The Thessalonians have been shaken by a message purporting to come from Paul himself that the day of the Lord is already present. He warns against this deception in eschatology by citing a scenario of events that must first occur (2 Thes 2:3-12) before the end will come. The overall point Paul makes is the need to reject such lies as Satan sends; he also reaffirms the Thessalonians in their calling (2 Thes 2:13-14). They are to uphold what Paul himself has taught (2 Thes 2:15).
“Spirit”: a Spirit-inspired utterance or ecstatic revelation. An oral statement: literally, a “word” or pronouncement, not necessarily of ecstatic origin. A letter allegedly sent by us: possibly a forged letter, so that Paul calls attention in 2 Thes 3:17 to his practice of concluding a genuine letter with a summary note or greeting in his own hand, as at Gal 6:11-18 and elsewhere.

It doesn’t say that there has been an apostacy, in context, he is speaking about word they have received perporting to be from him. I don’t see how this prooves any point about apostacy."

I wanted to come and check with my friends here what you think this passage is about and how it relates to the Mormon’s interpretation.

 

[anawim]

First and foremost, Paul was addressing the concerns of the Thessalonians, that the rapture had occurred, and that they had missed it.

Second, there have been apostasies throughout the last 2,000 years, starting with the Judaizers, then the Gnostics, etc. In our own day, I would include Mormons in that group, but obviously we also need to be charitable.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

To give you a better understanding of LDS theology read,

Seven Proofs of the Great Apostasy The New Testament Church was Entirely Dead by the Late Sixth Century whyprophets.com/prophets/7proofs.htm

In response, I would bring up III Nephi 28, Basically if an apostle is alive until the second coming, then apostasy is impossible. If John is not alive today, then the Book of Mormon is a false revelation.

The Book of Mormon - III Nephi 28 The Book of Mormon tells of Jesus visiting the American continent. He picks out twelve more disciples to spread the Mormon gospel on the American continents.

The heading for Chapter 28 says: “…Three Nephites are given power over death so as to remain on Earth until Jesus comes again…and they are now ministering among men.” Vs. 6-9, "…ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men,even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven. And ye shall never endure the pains of death; …for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of man unto me, while the world shall stand."

The Jesus of the Book of Mormon has stated that He will not allow three of His Nephite Apostles to suffer death, so that they can minister among men to bring the souls of men unto Jesus. They will keep doing this until Jesus’s second coming. Jesus has given these Nephites full apostleship with all the authority to act in His name, the same as the apostles of the Old World.

macgregorministries.org/mormons/apostacy.html

scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/28

google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=III+Nephi+28

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

defensorveritatis.net/library/index.htm

a catholic site that addresses mormonism

 

[FightingFat]

Huh?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi FightingFat The Book of Mormon is one of the “scriptures” of Latter Day Saints. In Third Nephi chapter 28, it says that the apostle John will be alive until the second coming. This most likely is based on a misunderstanding of Jesus words about John in the gospels.

John 21
20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” 22Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?” 24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

Anyway, read the link I gave above to 3 Nephi 28, it says the apostle John will not die, but will tarry until the Second Coming of Christ.

Ask the LDS Missionary, if John is still alive. I have had some tell me that they have seen him alive with their own eyes. Others will realize the problem and say he either died, or was assumed into heaven, others will say they simply do not know. The younger the missionary the more interresting answer you will get, and the more likely you will catch him off guard and make him think.

Bottom Line: If the Apostle John is still alive, then there is a living apostle and the church never went into apostasy. If John is missing in action, then the book of mormon bears false testimony that John will remain alive until the Second Coming and is therefore false.

 

[FightingFat]

Great! Thanks!