Mormons, when did the Apostacy occur?

[artist3189]

Really? Okay…Let’s compare your post to cumorah.com/language/greatapostasy.html

You changed “In proceeding with” to “Regarding”. Clever.

Very good, wussup! You got every word exactly right!

You changed “Again” to “Furthermore”. Otherwise, you lifted it verbatim.

continued later…

Yes, this is great, so much of his posts are just ‘lifted’ right out of LDS Apologetics 101. Good job. Wssup, you sound very, ah, intellectual, as compared to us, “since we are older than our writing implies”. As for you, you’re the best cut and paste man in the business. Please don’t forget about my LDS history lesson, I’m waiting and as you can gather, I haven’t the patience of Allweather. Stop reading Talmage and start weaving YOUR version of archaeological history for me.

 

[PaulDupre]

Anyone can go to the website at cumorah.com/language/greatapostasy.html and compare paragraph for paragraph and word for word the plaigerism from Talmage’s book Jesus the Christ.

Whether you copied and pasted it from that or another website or typed it in from your own copy of the book, the thoughts and words are Talmage’s, not yours.

 

[Tmaque]

Let’s cut him some slack. Maybe he simply forgot to give credit to the website he got the material from.

 

[Allweather]

Polygamy is a very polemic subject. One can give reasons for it being socially unacceptable, and many of these reasons would be true. What it is not is ‘adulterous’. According to Church Law one had to be married into polygamy to have sexual relations.

That isn’t Church law, that is church law. According to Catholicism and Christianity-at-large, by which I mean ALL orthodox Christians whether Catholic or not, polygamy is adulterous because, when one is married to one person, and has sex with another person, that is adultery. One cannot be “married into polygamy.” One may attempt marriage, but that is far different from actually marrying. BTW Jesus Himself taught about this subject in at least one gospel, and that teaching is the source of the majority of Catholic marriage law.

Furthermore, assuming it is of God, polygamy is not an immoral action, (consider Sarah), it was not a sin, and it was not a crime until Congress passed laws. It is both now. Note, it is my opinion Sarah also had issues with the situation.

I would agree. However, the evidence we have from Scripture shows that polygamy is NOT God’s wish for man. God always wishes the very best for man. Man often accepts less than the very best. God will work with that. It doesn’t mean that God is happy with man’s choice of second-best, but God loves us, and will work with us. Abram was a pagan. He was a Babylonian when God called him forth to father the Hebrews. It would be natural to expect Abram to follow at least some of the cultural instincts of the people from which he came. Sarai got pissy with Abram when Hagar started lording it over her because Hagar had a child while Sarai did not. This sounds like normal human jealousy to me, but I agree that Sarai probably had complex reasons for wanting Abram to become joined to Hagar. No matter how you look at it, though, the end result of this disobedience, ie this failure to WAIT ON THE LORD’S PROMISE to Abram, was family discord, and ultimately the birthing of an entire race of people that have been, as Scripture tells us, “a wild *** of a man.”

Also, according to the last statistics I had on the total numbers of polygamous relationships, the highest it reached was 3%, lower than the national average (Harrington, The Mormon Experience).

That may be. However, Mormons still practice polygamy, and even many who don’t practice it, still support it, as you are doing now, and as Zerinus has done many times. It would be one thing, as I’ve already stated, if Mormons were to say, well, that whole polygamy thing, that was a terrible sin our church committed, and we repent of it. But that isn’t what we hear from educated Mormons. The educated ones, that is, the ones who actually know about Mormon doctrine, and believe in it, whole-heartedly support polygamy, and look forward to it being a reality for them in heaven, and perhaps even on Earth someday. At least, the men Mormons do. I’m not so sure about the women. I rather suspect that Mormon women are less thrilled about the idea.

 

[PaulDupre]

Let’s cut him some slack. Maybe he simply forgot to give credit to the website he got the material from.

Actually I was ready to do just that, but he denied that he had cut-and-pasted it.

Paul

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Again, Dupre, you are wrong.

This is really depressing, wussup, really despressing.

Your actions show you to be no more of an “intellectual” on things Mormon than that other robot, Zerinus.

All your claims about how hard you work, your literary asides (what German philosopher did you tell a poster to read?) and your avuncular style was all a fraud.

You owe Paul an apology. You owe all the readers on this thread an apology.

But if recent actions obtain, then we will be waiting quite a while to see it in print.

Zerinus called us all “damnable people of an evil church,” and that was about 5 weeks ago. We are still waiting for *his *apology.

Go read something worthwhile. Expand your mind in an area not held in thrall to Mormonism. Go volunteer at a food bank or at the Salvation Army. Even Catholic Charities could use your professional skills.

But please avoid the polemics: you plaigerize and you dissemble. That is very unbecoming in someone who publicly proclaims a deep and abiding faith in God.

Pax Christi

 

[majick275]

Yeesh, you people are a lot older than your writing implies. Regarding comments to Allweather, I was not comparing the Abrahamic Sacrifice to polygamy in terms of a burden imposed by the Lord as a test. However you seem to think that it would be easier to sacrifice your child than to practice polygamy. That is ridiculous.
Polygamy is a very polemic subject. One can give reasons for it being socially unacceptable, and many of these reasons would be true. What it is not is ‘adulterous’.

yes it was. Jesus was very specific on this. look at who Joseph Smith married and compare that with Jesus definitions from the bible. it was adultery. even D&C 132 decries his practices in verse 61.

According to Church Law one had to be married into polygamy to have sexual relations.

LDS church law which I believe is in question here as during the time it was practiced it was in direct violation of the D&C which at that time stated it was a crime and that LDS didn’t practice it*. …Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband except in case of death… (1835 Doctrine and Covenants 101:4, page 251; 1844 D&C 109:4, page 439; 1866 European D&C 109:4, page 331.)* this wasn’t changed until 1876!!!

Furthermore, assuming it is of God, polygamy is not an immoral action,

how can you assume this after reading the new testament? or for that matter even the BoM!

(consider Sarah), it was not a sin,

and how did that work out for everyone?

and it was not a crime until Congress passed laws.

which the LDS violated.

It is both now. Note, it is my opinion Sarah also had issues with the situation. Also, according to the last statistics I had on the total numbers of polygamous relationships, the highest it reached was 3%, lower than the national average (Harrington, The Mormon Experience).

I challenge those figures and tell you it was 20-30% depending on your statistical model (it was covered up a lot) according to Todd Compton and here is the link:

signaturebookslibrary.org/essays/mormonpolygamy.htm

Anyway, my point with bringing up the comparison was to illustrate that I understood Allweather’s fiance’s issues with polygamy. Period. I meant to imply nothing more.
Still going through stuff. Talmage did not address the subject as well as I want regarding very early history. The main problem is there is not a dirth of literature until well into the 3rd century, and even then there is not a lot.

polygamy is wrong, the early LDS knew it and did it anyway. Joseph Smith did a great wrong to a great many people in his teaching and practice of this.

 

[wussup]

:bowdown: Ohhh, please forgive me? :bowdown: … ! I am truly laughing my overly round derriere off.
Any idiot could look at the writing and see it was not my style. Dupre is at least not an idiot. A liar, maybe, but not an idiot. I was wondering if those supposed ‘very active church members’ would recognize the writings of easily the most well read Church author, and the one book that is pertinent to the subject. Nope.
As for fraud? , sorry still laughing…I never claimed to have written the words, and even gave a clue to find who did. Again, I think it was dupre who took the clue. Tmaque, you joined a little late. one these genius’ asked me to be specific about what part of ‘The Great Apostasy’ I wished to address. Given this information, I am, again, surprised Dupre did not go to the source I in fact did give. Fraud? Whatever.
Now, more seriously.
Kinsman, your a windbag.
Point A: The German philospher was Martin Heidegger. I never quoted any words of his, neither did I give any ideas of his other than to reference a couple of the many ideas he did reference, to wit, his reference to ‘sein’ and ‘zeit’.
Point B: I did give the link to the book I copied and pasted from
Point C: One these genius’ asked me to be specific about what part of ‘The Great Apostasy’ I wished to address. Given this information, I am, again, surprised Dupre did not go to the source I in fact did give.
Point D: I never claimed to have a ‘deep and abiding faith’. In fact, on another thread I said that I did not believe the vast majority of people did not even have the ‘faith of a mustard seed’, you certainly do not. Furthermore, here I have repeatedly stated my objective was to learn from RC, to learn of their faith, which while it may not be even ‘that of a mustard seed’, is that of, ohh, say, a muon, which frankly is more than I.

I came here to learn. This is not happening. Rather than giving valid reasons and examples of your own faith, you choose to bash. And frankly, you bash poorly. Salani kahli.

 

[majick275]

Hamba kahle!

Bekumnandi ukuhlangana nawe, Sobonana futhi?

 

[artist3189]

:bowdown: Ohhh, please forgive me? :bowdown: … ! I am truly laughing my overly round derriere off.
Any idiot could look at the writing and see it was not my style. Dupre is at least not an idiot. A liar, maybe, but not an idiot. I was wondering if those supposed ‘very active church members’ would recognize the writings of easily the most well read Church author, and the one book that is pertinent to the subject. Nope.
As for fraud? , sorry still laughing…I never claimed to have written the words, and even gave a clue to find who did. Again, I think it was dupre who took the clue. Tmaque, you joined a little late. one these genius’ asked me to be specific about what part of ‘The Great Apostasy’ I wished to address. Given this information, I am, again, surprised Dupre did not go to the source I in fact did give. Fraud? Whatever.
Now, more seriously.
Kinsman, your a windbag.
Point A: The German philospher was Martin Heidegger. I never quoted any words of his, neither did I give any ideas of his other than to reference a couple of the many ideas he did reference, to wit, his reference to ‘sein’ and ‘zeit’.
Point B: I did give the link to the book I copied and pasted from
Point C: One these genius’ asked me to be specific about what part of ‘The Great Apostasy’ I wished to address. Given this information, I am, again, surprised Dupre did not go to the source I in fact did give.
Point D: I never claimed to have a ‘deep and abiding faith’. In fact, on another thread I said that I did not believe the vast majority of people did not even have the ‘faith of a mustard seed’, you certainly do not. Furthermore, here I have repeatedly stated my objective was to learn from RC, to learn of their faith, which while it may not be even ‘that of a mustard seed’, is that of, ohh, say, a muon, which frankly is more than I.

I came here to learn. This is not happening. Rather than giving valid reasons and examples of your own faith, you choose to bash. And frankly, you bash poorly. Salani kahli.

You came here to spew your garbage, not to learn. More than once, posters here challenged your ‘writings’ as in the ‘I affirm’ nonsense and you never responded that it wasn’t’ ‘your words’…although, as I and others pointed out, clearly, that it and other posts sounded ‘lifted’, and yet you never said a word. Your arrogance is typical of the Mormon ‘door knockers’ I have encountered, which was an impetus for me to drop in on this thread, also to learn, but I quickly found out that, unlike Allweather, I have neither the stomach nor tolerance for pompous heretics such as you. If you want to paste ‘commentary’ as dialogs, then that’s a war you’ll loose my friend. If anyone here, chose to pop in their Cd’s of the Early Church Fathers, or Papal Encyclicals, you would be blasted into next week with material that would run post after post, and bury you with anathema after anathema. Is that your idea of learning? Save YOUR long winded speeches for your younger minions that can be so impressed by a sarcastic ‘windbag’ of legendary proportions. You can’t even answer the basic challenges to your own misfit religion, it seems obfuscation is your best defense. Again, sir, where is the LDS in all is might and glory and majesty, with all it’s money and resources, digging for this ‘lost culture’? You, sir, are the lier, the cheat, the blind man and the fool. You say, ‘Faith’, as in believing in the statements of a unbalanced man, Joseph Smith,… well you’re right, I don’t have that kind of faith, I have faith in the Son of the Living God, his mother, his Church and the continuous Apostolic teachings. If YOU can’t substantiate your religions BASIC CLAIMS, then all your other dialog is just window dressing.

You like to quote your theological wonders, let’s start with this oldie but goodie…which I am SURE you know.

“[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in the Catholic Church’s bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” 4:5 [A.D. 397] St Augustine).

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Any idiot could look at the writing and see it was not my style. Dupre is at least not an idiot. A liar, maybe, but not an idiot.

 

[burnside]

Can i just turn down the heat a little in here by mentioning the fact that Donny Osmond was on the British TV Programme
“Heaven&Earth” last weekend,claiming the Mormon Religion was
persecuted?Is that true?

 

[Allweather]

Can i just turn down the heat a little in here by mentioning the fact that Donny Osmond was on the British TV Programme
“Heaven&Earth” last weekend,claiming the Mormon Religion was
persecuted?Is that true?

Yes, it was as in once upon a time.

Gosh, Donny Osmond. I thought he was dead.

 

[PaulDupre]

Can i just turn down the heat a little in here by mentioning the fact that Donny Osmond was on the British TV Programme
“Heaven&Earth” last weekend,claiming the Mormon Religion was
persecuted?Is that true?

In the mid-1800’s, their neighbors got sick and tired of the Mormons’ fraud, defamation, stealing, polygamy and blasphemy. So the neighbors kicked them out of several places they tried to settle. The Mormons brought upon themselves all of the miseries they suffered. That’s not persecution, that’s the natural consequence of bad behavior.

Of course, “apostate Christianity” has never been persecuted . Just ask the thousands of martyrs, both ancient and modern.

Paul