Mortal sin at death

[D_M]

Watching from the sidelines, I’m trying to understand where this question is coming from, in all seriousness. Are you trying to find out if it’s possible for our will to change while we’re in Hell? As in, when we die, if we go to Hell, might we some day desire to confess our sins and take our place in Heaven?

Hi Fanchan,

That’s exactly it, you got it.

God Bless,

 

[FanChan]

Hi Fanchan,

That’s exactly it, you got it.

God Bless,

Well, apart from doctrine, looking at it more logically or philosophically (and so, I suppose it deserves saying, fallibly), when one goes to Hell, they’ve chosen to deny God and His Love. Hell itself is the complete absence of God. Logically, that means it’s the absence of Love, as well. Without Love, I don’t think a desire for Heaven could be conjured up by the soul.

 

[mattkubes]

I know you’re not an expert, but if you know that an infallible statement exists that states ‘our wills are fixed when we did’, would it be possible if you could reference to when/where it was stated, as I would be very interested to see it… (you don’t have to if it’s too much work or anything, but if you know it offhand I would be very curious see it.)

So I guess there are a few components to this. By saying our wills are fixed when we die, that implies a couple things: that judgement occurs immediately after death, and that this judgement is irreversible.

In Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII defined the first part of this doctrine:
“Moreover we define that according to the general disposition of God, the souls of those who die in actual mortal sin go down into hell immediately (mox) after death and there suffer the pain of hell.”

There are a few more examples of this if you’d like, and some Catechism references to boot (although I realise that these, in and of themselves, are not infallible).

As for the permanence of Hell, well there are dozens of scripture references that I’m sure you are all too familiar with. I think these two realities combined (the prompt fulfillment of judgement and the eternal condemnation in Hell) show how our wills become fixed immediately after death.

 

[mattkubes]

Hi Fanchan,
That’s exactly it, you got it.
God Bless,

Oh, so I see my last paragraph was a bit premature…if you’d like to discuss the permanence of Hell and the impenitence of the damned, I think we should start a new thread. It just feels like we’re getting pretty far away from the OP’s intention for this thread at this point.

As a primer, the Catholic Encyclopedia has a nice discussion of these issues (try newadvent.org in case you’re unfamiliar with that site).

 

[igator99]

Hi all! Wow, I’ve been away a looong time. New job and new kids are the biggest reasons (not that anyone was inquiring). At any rate, I’ve a question on what I take to be a fundamental teaching of Catholicism.

I’m sure I’ve read in a number of places that if a Catholic dies with unconfessed mortal sin tainting his soul, he will be condemned for eternity. I’m just wondering whether that teaching is correct, as I’ve stated it. And, I’m also wondering whether it doesn’t seem a bit odd to any other Catholics out there? I suppose I’m bothered mostly by the sense in which it seems to be a bit merciless and arbitrary.

By arbitrary, I mean, does it not seem strange to think that one could live saintly for many many years, commit a serious sin and, before he could confess it, he gets into a car accident, say, and dies instantly. I guess it just seems more rational to think that the whole of one’s life must be taken into account at judgment.

What do you think? Anyone out there sympathetic with my concerns here?

Yep. I came back to the Church after many years not being a true practicing Catholic. I have a real problem with this mortal sin and must go to confession to be forgiven. It all seems and feels like a spiritual trap. I’m trying to do what is right and follow the Churches teachings but with the lack of confession available I find it hard and it really bothers me.

I have a question. Why wouldn’t Jesus let you live until your soul was in the most perfect state that it can be in then take you? Surely he knows me and he knows everything that will happen to me. Why not take me when my soul is the cleanest it will ever be?

 

[FanChan]

Yep. I came back to the Church after many years not being a true practicing Catholic. I have a real problem with this mortal sin and must go to confession to be forgiven. It all seems and feels like a spiritual trap. I’m trying to do what is right and follow the Churches teachings but with the lack of confession available I find it hard and it really bothers me.

I have a question. Why wouldn’t Jesus let you live until your soul was in the most perfect state that it can be in then take you? Surely he knows me and he knows everything that will happen to me. Why not take me when my soul is the cleanest it will ever be?

The simplest answer is that that would sort of trump our free will. It might also trump the free will of others around you. I think the whole thought of Jesus ‘letting’ someone live, or ‘taking’ someone when it’s ‘their time’ is a misleading or flawed way to think about life and death.

To get back on track, think of it this way. If you’re at the moment in your life when your soul is the ‘cleanest’, then you carry on to live through a very difficult time, and you choose to turn away from God, might it not be true to say that when you thought you were ‘clean’, your soul was not actually as strong as it should be?

On another point, the idea of Jesus ‘letting’ someone live, I think there are times, when your soul is in a state of distress, such as when a mortal soul is tainting it, and there’s a chance in your near future for a change of heart, there are instances when divine providence does step in, carrying you to that moment of peace, if only to give you a second chance to live your life the right way. I can only say this because I’ve experience one such situation, where I was struggling with whether or not to go to confession over a sin. I was in a very serious car crash - got squashed by a semi-truck - but I survived, and was able to get to Confession. My life’s taken a turn for the better ever since, realizing that I just might have a purpose in this world.

 

[D_M]

Hi,

I feel that this issue is very much in the spirit of the OP.

They are permanent states, and as the narrative from Luke which I earlier quoted stated, that there is no passing between eternal damnation and eternal reward.

The reason why this is impassable though, I had thought was a mystery, and not because we necessarily knew the answer (ie. that ‘our wills are fixed’). I’ll try to explain what I mean:

• Suppose the reason why eternal damnation is permanent, as scripture informs us, is not because no one is capable of repenting, but rather because while everyone is capable of repenting, not a single person ever shall repent for all eternity. God knows that they never shall repent for all eternity and He tells us them, and since God cannot be wrong, their fate is therefore ‘fixed’… but not because they are in fact incapable of changing their mind (as though their ‘wills were fixed’), but rather because they never would.
• Suppose the reason why it was permanent was because of some other reason, which we have not understood nor has it been revealed to us, but which is some reason other than ‘our wills have been fixed’

Now if there was an infallible statement that has been made which does in fact say the reason why it is permanent is because people are in fact no longer possessing of free will and that they are ‘fixed’, then that would solve this question.

(in response to FanChen’s point: traditionally it has been thought that one of the sorrows of the damned is their knowledge of the loss of their salvation…St Augustine wrote a bit about this, and said something to the effect that every creation, created naturally good, cannot lose their essential goodness even though she should sin against the goodness within her, and so she is sorrowful to losing what she should have had, although it is her fault that she lost it)

God Bless,

 

[mattkubes]

Well this throws a wrench into my understanding of Hell - it still asserts that the damned remain there for eternity, but the reason why becomes a little less clear in my mind:

In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell…But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted. (Link)

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

God didnt give us our sexuality & other desires to totally suppress them, to do that causes frustration, we are all unique, created by God no two people are alike, we all think different, God knows this , he knows Human nature is weak, & will fall, over & over again. Jesus has attoned for the sins of man. The way we are is the way God wants us , He loves us unconditionally, of course we have to acknowledge him & ask his mercy, That is all he expects

To give a phrase new meaning. Take “Once saved, always saved". This is true. It takes place after death. The opposite is also true. **'Once damned, always damned.” **