Mortal Sin (Lust)

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shawnhd45

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Here is the problem…

We as homo sapiens are sexual creatures, this is a fundamental scientific fact. We look at things of beauty, or things that we are attracted to subjectively…what I may think is beautiful may not be to you, this also is a fundamental scientific fact. The Holy scriptures, and the words of Jesus Christ says this…“And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”–Matthew 18:9 also, Matthew 5:28 says, " But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Ok, we are creatures of sexual reproduction and are programmed to be sexually attractive to others, via the concept of reproducing for our species…

The problem: We will always lust! not just over sexual pleasure, but things of beauty, this is our genetic makeup…it has nothing to do with evilness!!! It is our nature.

The RCC says if we lust (in a mortal state) then we must repent in confession, also in impure thought…or we lose our salvation if not confessed… This to me is sadly embarrassing that the church teaches this, our salvation is NOT a revolving door, we have sexual thoughts and lust multiple times a day…if we were honest with yourself we would be in constant confession! (Now please don’t give me the answer of…well, sexual thoughts are not impure, but only if you dwell on them…sorry, but that is subjective too! this along with any other sin that can be mortal…it is impossible for us to know if we have sinned with deliberate consent and having FULL knowledge, this too is subjective!

My question: Since it is impossible for one to know with objective understanding if we have mortally sinned, why not just a general confession? Didn’t Paul tell us…Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6-7)… In other words, don’t get so worked up over things.just talk to God about it?!
 
shawnhd45 said:
Here is the problem…

We as homo sapiens are sexual creatures, this is a fundamental scientific fact. We look at things of beauty, or things that we are attracted to subjectively…what I may think is beautiful may not be to you, this also is a fundamental scientific fact. The Holy scriptures, and the words of Jesus Christ says this…“And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”–Matthew 18:9 also, Matthew 5:28 says, " But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Ok, we are creatures of sexual reproduction and are programmed to be sexually attractive to others, via the concept of reproducing for our species…

The problem: We will always lust! not just over sexual pleasure, but things of beauty, this is our genetic makeup…it has nothing to do with evilness!!! It is our nature.

The RCC says if we lust (in a mortal state) then we must repent in confession, also in impure thought…or we lose our salvation if not confessed… This to me is sadly embarrassing that the church teaches this, our salvation is NOT a revolving door, we have sexual thoughts and lust multiple times a day…if we were honest with yourself we would be in constant confession! (Now please don’t give me the answer of…well, sexual thoughts are not impure, but only if you dwell on them…sorry, but that is subjective too! this along with any other sin that can be mortal…it is impossible for us to know if we have sinned with deliberate consent and having FULL knowledge, this too is subjective!

My question: Since it is impossible for one to know with objective understanding if we have mortally sinned, why not just a general confession? Didn’t Paul tell us…Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6-7)… In other words, don’t get so worked up over things.just talk to God about it?!
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I think you’re being scrupulous on this issue. There is a difference between genuine “lust”, happiness or pleasure in something, and having pleasure in something before realizing its wrong and then immediately abstaining one’s self of it. Lust is a disordered desire for sex. It means looking at sex purely for personal satisfaction. Its also disordered when it is sought for in someone you are not married to because it is meant to be a sacred covenant. We’re supposed to hold ourselves above the standards of animals and that’s just a given fact of Christianity. We are prone to sin, and we will sin, but we must do our best to maintain the status quo to our absolute-best ability.

We do have physical bodies, but you seem to think that means we should adhere to physical standards. That doesn’t cut it. We are a union of physical and spiritual as human beings - thus we need to take into account a bit of both worlds.
 
One must always distinguish.

In this topic:

Distinguish between what is “lust” and what is not.

Lust is as defined in the Catechism: 2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

(more: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#II)

Distinguish between what is temptation and what is sin.

All sort of thoughts say – can “happen to one” —in an unwanted and uncaused way. But such need not be even the* slightest sin*. In fact such can be the occasion for increasing in the virtue of chastity.

Distinguish between “first thoughts and emotions” that happen to us and that which is chosen --consented to–sought…

Distinguish between not having full knowledge and having full knowledge…between partial and complete consent —in terms of venial and mortal sin on the part of the person if they do sin.
 
It is possible for a person to judge as to if they have committed a mortal sin or not.

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI
  1. When does one commit a mortal sin?
1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
  1. When does one commit a venial sin?
1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
 
shawnhd45 said:
My question: Since it is impossible for one to know with objective understanding if we have mortally sinned, why not just a general confession? Didn’t Paul tell us…Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6-7)… In other words, don’t get so worked up over things.just talk to God about it?!
Click to expand...
It is quite possible to judge if one has committed a mortal sin or not --such is quite defined. In confession we “accuse ourselves” based on this judgment. One is obliged to confess moral sins. Venial sins are recommended to be confessed (at least often) but they can be forgiven in many ways (such as prayer). If one is doubtful about a certain thing --one can confess it --but one states “it is doubtful” (or something to that effect). Those with lax or simply a normal conscience can be advised to confess them. Those who are scrupulous or have scruples to one degree or another ought to have a regular confessor and seek his direction on “doubtful sins” (often they are advised not to directly confess doubtful sin).
 
shawnhd45 said:
Here is the problem…

We as homo sapiens are sexual creatures, this is a fundamental scientific fact. We look at things of beauty, or things that we are attracted to subjectively…what I may think is beautiful may not be to you, this also is a fundamental scientific fact. The Holy scriptures, and the words of Jesus Christ says this…“And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”–Matthew 18:9 also, Matthew 5:28 says, " But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Ok, we are creatures of sexual reproduction and are programmed to be sexually attractive to others, via the concept of reproducing for our species…

The problem: We will always lust! not just over sexual pleasure, but things of beauty, this is our genetic makeup…it has nothing to do with evilness!!! It is our nature.

The RCC says if we lust (in a mortal state) then we must repent in confession, also in impure thought…or we lose our salvation if not confessed… This to me is sadly embarrassing that the church teaches this, our salvation is NOT a revolving door, we have sexual thoughts and lust multiple times a day…if we were honest with yourself we would be in constant confession! (Now please don’t give me the answer of…well, sexual thoughts are not impure, but only if you dwell on them…sorry, but that is subjective too! this along with any other sin that can be mortal…it is impossible for us to know if we have sinned with deliberate consent and having FULL knowledge, this too is subjective!

My question: Since it is impossible for one to know with objective understanding if we have mortally sinned, why not just a general confession? Didn’t Paul tell us…Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6-7)… In other words, don’t get so worked up over things.just talk to God about it?!
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You are making a lot of generalizations about people. Lust, sexual or otherwise, is not a problem for all (although I could argue that all are prone to pride in some form, and all sin proceeds from it). It is a very big problem, however.

You are mistaken if you think that people cannot overcome lustful thoughts, desires, or actions. Why would our Lord say what you have quoted faithfully from the Holy Gospel? Obviously we can free ourselves from this sin.

If you experience a lustful thought, whether you meant to or not (and this goes for all of us with any sin), make a sincere Act of Contrition. At night before you go to bed and you’re doing your examination of conscience, ask for forgiveness for all sins committed throughout the day, including the lustful ones, especially the lustful ones if lust is a ruling vice for a particular individual.

The Sacrament of Penance, like all the Sacraments, is very powerful in we believe in their power.

Prayers for you 🙂
 
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Thanks for the response, I do agree with your last part…say an Act of Contrition or simply tell God your sorry for your sins daily…that I get…but I’m talking about objectively knowing if it is a MORTAL sin, it is impossible to tell. The CCC says many “grey” things, such as what constitutes a mortal sin…like culpability, habit, psychological factors, duress, compulsion, etc can all diminish the sin, or the sin is nonexistent in the first place…the problem is distinguishing if it is or not, which is objectively impossible!

I have heard people say, “if your in doubt confess it out” well I say, if I’m in doubt, I obviously do not have complete knowledge, or deliberate consent if the sin is mortal or I would know that it is objectively…meaning to know 100%.

I pray for forgiveness daily…many times actually, and go to confession every 2 weeks or so, but instead of feeling grace from this, I’m feeling more doubtful confessing it if I do not know if I have mortal sins, because they are subjective to the individual. (Believe, me I’m trying to be sincere as possible, but this bothers me)
 
shawnhd45 said:
.

Thanks for the response, I do agree with your last part…say an Act of Contrition or simply tell God your sorry for your sins daily…that I get…but I’m talking about objectively knowing if it is a MORTAL sin, it is impossible to tell. The CCC says many “grey” things, such as what constitutes a mortal sin…like culpability, habit, psychological factors, duress, compulsion, etc can all diminish the sin, or the sin is nonexistent in the first place…the problem is distinguishing if it is or not, which is objectively impossible!

I have heard people say, “if your in doubt confess it out” well I say, if I’m in doubt, I obviously do not have complete knowledge, or deliberate consent if the sin is mortal or I would know that it is objectively…meaning to know 100%.

I pray for forgiveness daily…many times actually, and go to confession every 2 weeks or so, but instead of feeling grace from this, I’m feeling more doubtful confessing it if I do not know if I have mortal sins, because they are subjective to the individual. (Believe, me I’m trying to be sincere as possible, but this bothers me)
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One does not need some “100 percent” knowledge (such would be a misunderstanding).

It is quite possible to judge if one has committed a mortal sin or not --such is quite defined.

In confession we “accuse ourselves” based on this judgment. One is obliged to confess moral sins. Venial sins are recommended to be confessed (at least often) but they can be forgiven in many ways (such as prayer).

If one is doubtful about a certain thing was in fact a mortal sin --one can confess it --but one states “it is doubtful” (or something to that effect). Those with lax or simply a normal conscience can be advised to confess them. Those who are scrupulous or have scruples to one degree or another ought to have a regular confessor and seek his direction on “doubtful sins” (often they are advised not to directly confess doubtful sin).
 
shawnhd45 said:
.

Thanks for the response, I do agree with your last part…say an Act of Contrition or simply tell God your sorry for your sins daily…that I get…**but I’m talking about objectively knowing if it is a MORTAL sin, it is impossible to tell. **The CCC says many “grey” things, such as what constitutes a mortal sin…like culpability, habit, psychological factors, duress, compulsion, etc can all diminish the sin, or the sin is nonexistent in the first place…the problem is distinguishing if it is or not, which is objectively impossible!

I have heard people say, “if your in doubt confess it out” well I say, if I’m in doubt, I obviously do not have complete knowledge, or deliberate consent if the sin is mortal or I would know that it is objectively…meaning to know 100%.

I pray for forgiveness daily…many times actually, and go to confession every 2 weeks or so, but instead of feeling grace from this, I’m feeling more doubtful confessing it if I do not know if I have mortal sins, because they are subjective to the individual. (Believe, me I’m trying to be sincere as possible, but this bothers me)
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This is the 2nd thread you have started on this topic. Mortal sins are NOT objective to the individual. You need a spiritual director as soon as possible, you have a lot of confusion about this topic even though people have already given you lots of good advice.
 
A spiritual director or a regular confessor can be of great assistance in the Christian life.
 
Bookcat said:
A spiritual director or a regular confessor can be of great assistance in the Christian life.
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I have a great confessor, I go to confession at least every 2 weeks, sometimes weekly (just got back actually) but you are missing my point… please read carefully (not being condescending)

If sins are MORTAL we need to confess it, venial ones too, those simple prayer alone can rid those vices.

It takes 3 conditions for a sin to be mortal…1. Grave offense, 2. FULL Knowledge, 3. DELIBRATE consent. (In other words the sin must be serious, one must know that it is serious, AND (my point I’m making) one must have DELIBERATE consent!

Consent means to NOT be under psychological factors, duress, fear, culpability, habit, and ignorance.

It is impossible for anyone to know if they are under these human conditions during sinful acts…we may have the first two conditions, but the 3rd may by absent…or in any given order. If one has doubt, regardless, it means that the consent was not there, or you do not have FULL knowledge!!! If you do not have full knowledge, it is not a mortal sin.

it’s not about finding a easy way out, or to justify sin…it is to apply rationality to it.
 
Why do you keep insisting that we cannot know if we have deliberate consent? Most people do know! If you understand what you are doing, and you are justifying it to yourself, telling yourself, “Well, I don’t KNOW if I have deliberate consent, because no one CAN know,” etc. etc. etc. then you are playing mental games with yourself.

No wonder you are tied up in knots.
 
shawnhd45 said:
I have a great confessor, I go to confession at least every 2 weeks, sometimes weekly (just got back actually) but you are missing my point… please read carefully (not being condescending)

If sins are MORTAL we need to confess it, venial ones too, those simple prayer alone can rid those vices. venial need not be confessed but good to --I note for clarity for readers

It takes 3 conditions for a sin to be mortal…1. Grave offense, 2. FULL Knowledge, 3. DELIBRATE consent. (In other words the sin must be serious, one must know that it is serious, AND (my point I’m making) one must have DELIBERATE consent!

Yes grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent.

Consent means to NOT be under psychological factors, duress, fear, culpability, habit, and ignorance.

Deliberate consent means to give well-- deliberate consent…complete consent.

It is “possible” for various things to enter in and reduce culpability? Sure. This is where ones confessor particularly can enter in again

It is impossible for anyone to know if they are under these human conditions during sinful acts…we may have the first two conditions, but the 3rd may by absent…or in any given order.

Such is not the the case. We do not need to have the vision of God. One can judge that one has committed a mortal sin or that one has not
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