Mortal Sins and Confession

[Matt_Collins]

You make several excellent points.

However, this technical obligation to confess or not may have no bearing on whether one is in a state of mortal sin. One could be certain at the time, but forget over the passing or time.

Hence, the recommended practice of regular examination of conscience and confession.

One could commit a mortal sin, thereby removing sanctifying grace. But let’s say with the passing of time one forgets the spcifics of the moment and doubts whether the sin really was mortal: was that a sin of grave matter? did I really have full knowledge? did I really give complete consent? While there is perhaps no technical obligation to confess this doubtful sin, if this person dies in such a state, without being reconciled to God, they will go to hell.

A very common situation, I suspect, given the general laxity among Catholics today, and you are correct. However, if they forgot about the sin, but make a good confession in which they tell all other the mortal sins they remember (if any) then even the one they forgot would be forgiven. This is why, at the end of listing our sins in confession, we should say something like “I am sorry for these sins and all the sins of my life.” In the context of the confessional, such a general expression of contrition, whether it is perfect or imperfect, is sufficient to forgive both the sins we have confessed, as well as those we may have forgotten or which may be doubtful in our minds.

Who would risk such a thing based on doubt?

I think the point Fr. Doyle was making in the pamphlet is that according to the Council of Trent, there IS no risk in not confessing doubtful mortal sins, if the doubt is genuine. The quote was:

"According to the Council of Trent and the surest theology, one is only obliged to confess sins which one is certain are mortal, that is to say, the grave guilt of which is as certain as it is that two and two make four."

He’s not saying that you don’t have to be sorry for it. Rather, he is saying that there is no obligation to confess a doubtful mortal sin to be forgiven, just as there is no obligation to confess venial sins to be forgiven. If there is no obligation to confess a doubtful mortal sin, then it follows that for all intents and purposes, God treats a doubtful mortal sin as if it were a venial sin. That is what I found so remarkable.

I want to be clear here. I completely understand that for most Catholics, those of us who are not scrupulous, it is highly recommended that we confess all doubtful mortal sins! And venial sins, too. Not because it won’t be forgiven unless we confess it, but rather, because we need to get clear guidance about whether or not it was serious matter, whether or not we had full knowledge, and whether or not we gave full consent.

I’m not saying that this is an excuse to introduce doubt where there really is no doubt. I’m just saying that my understanding has always been that if you suspected, but were not certain, that you had committed a mortal sin, and if it really was a mortal sin, that it would not be forgiven unless you confessed it. Fr. Doyle, and apparently the Council of Trent, say no. You don’t have to confess doubtful mortal sins to make a good confession, and that if you make a good confession by confessing all certain mortal sins, that even the doubtful mortal sins are forgiven, just as they would be if you forgot them.

Knowing this can be a source of peace to those of us who are not scrupulous, and actually help prevent us from becoming scrupulous.

The ordinary means available to Catholics to allow God to put us in His graces (if we are not in them) is through confession.

You are right. That is the ordinary means. Of course, a perfect act of contrition also restores sanctifying grace IMMEDIATELY, and if a person dies after having made such a perfect act of contrition, but before having the opportunity to confess, he would not go to hell. The author of the pamphlet emphasizes this point, and it is valid for both the scrupulous and the lax.

The Sacrament of the Sick also forgives mortal sins if the recipient cannot go to confession and would have wanted his sin forgiven, which only God can know.

 

[underacloud]

Without getting into the happening there described above…

It is important to note that …what if a person makes a mistake and judges that such and such is doubtful in terms of mortal sin …and so in good faith omits it in their confession …the person can be said to have made a formally integral confession confessing all mortal sins they are conscious of from their examine…and being contrite --especially for any mortal sin…even though they omitted honestly this mortal sin (not thinking it to have been mortal or judging it to be doubtful). That omitted mortal sin would be “indirectly absolved” in that confession. And of course it is possible for the person with their mistaken judgment about the mortal sin …be restored by God to grace prior to even such a confession. (of course if they later realize the gravity of that sin --they would bring it to confession then).

But as I noted above – ordinarily one is recommended to confess “doubtful mortal sins” (noting the presence of doubt).

Yes, indeed, thanks for clarifying.

I had stated “without being reconciled to God” as a general nod to this or other means of forgiveness such as a perfect act of contrition (with the intention to confess).

You raise an interesting point Bookcat. When confessing doubtful mortal sins, you say that one should note the doubt. Is this considered a requirement? If I doubt a certain sin is mortal because, say, I’m not sure if I fully reflected/consented to it, must I say this? Or is it sufficient to name the sin itself?

 

[Bookcat]

"certain as it is that two and two make four."

It is important to again note (for new readers) that such language (as two and two make four) there is more of the kind of language often used by say a confessor with his penitent who is scrupulous. The Church does not use that language for persons in general. Those who are scrupulous can be in a “different boat” and need a regular confessor and perhaps various principles etc that are only for them to follow due to their particular difficulties with scruples.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, indeed, thanks for clarifying.

I had stated “without being reconciled to God” as a general nod to this or other means of forgiveness such as a perfect act of contrition (with the intention to confess).

You raise an interesting point Bookcat. When confessing doubtful mortal sins, you say that one should note the doubt. Is this considered a requirement? If I doubt a certain sin is mortal because, say, I’m not sure if I fully reflected/consented to it, must I say this? Or is it sufficient to name the sin itself?

One is to note if it is doubtful. Now if someone makes a mistake and say forgets …no worries.

 

[underacloud]

A very common situation, I suspect, given the general laxity among Catholics today, and you are correct. However, if they forgot about the sin, but make a good confession in which they tell all other the mortal sins they remember (if any) then even the one they forgot would be forgiven. This is why, at the end of listing our sins in confession, we should say something like “I am sorry for these sins and all the sins of my life.” In the context of the confessional, such a general expression of contrition, whether it is perfect or imperfect, is sufficient to forgive both the sins we have confessed, as well as those we may have forgotten or which may be doubtful in our minds.

Yes, this is very true, and we can be thankful that God is so generous to forgive our serious sins in such a way even when we are so lax to have forgotten them!

He’s not saying that you don’t have to be sorry for it. Rather, he is saying that there is no obligation to confess a doubtful mortal sin to be forgiven, just as there is no obligation to confess venial sins to be forgiven. If there is no obligation to confess a doubtful mortal sin, then it follows that for all intents and purposes, God treats a doubtful mortal sin as if it were a venial sin. That is what I found so remarkable.

Perhaps we need to consider “doubtful mortal sins” in two categories…

a) A Sin that is doubtful as to whether it is mortal at the time of commiting it (or immediately following). Such does not need to be confessed. One cannot give full consent yet be doubtful at the same time. This is the sort of doubtful mortal sin that plagues the mind of the scrupulous.

b) A sin that is doubtful because one has forgotten with the passing of time. I do not think that this is what is meant by the quote given. The mortal sin severs sanctifying grace. The grace does not gradually return because our lax conscience has forgotten our great offense against God. Some sort of forgiveness - general or specific, via confession, perfect act of contrition - is required to restore grace. Perhaps God is so generous that such sins are forgiven when the person turns back to God in prayer, and God sees perfect contrition in their heart, but while we can rely on the mercy of God, we shoud not assume it. I can, thus, still see a scenario where doubtful mortal sins (through forgetfulness over time) place our souls in real danger.

Does that make sense? Feel free to correct me on any points.

 

[Matt_Collins]

I know we’re going over and over a lot of the same points, and I’m not trying to be argumentative. My purpose isn’t to beat a dead horse. It just seems that there are nuances to the things we’re saying that I think are worth exploring.

Perhaps we need to consider “doubtful mortal sins” in two categories…

a) A Sin that is doubtful as to whether it is mortal at the time of commiting it (or immediately following). Such does not need to be confessed. One cannot give full consent yet be doubtful at the same time. This is the sort of doubtful mortal sin that plagues the mind of the scrupulous.

That is a good point. It is true that you can’t give full consent unless you know what you’re consenting to. That principle is clear enough that even the scrupulous might understand and find comfort in it. Perhaps relating it to the consent required for medical care could be an analogy they might understand. I’ll have to ponder that some more.

b) A sin that is doubtful because one has forgotten with the passing of time. I do not think that this is what is meant by the quote given. The mortal sin severs sanctifying grace. The grace does not gradually return because our lax conscience has forgotten our great offense against God. (Emphasis mine.)

Excellent point, and I like the way you put it. Which leads to…

Some sort of forgiveness - general or specific, via confession, perfect act of contrition - is required to restore grace.

Yes.

Perhaps God is so generous that such sins are forgiven when the person turns back to God in prayer, and God sees perfect contrition in their heart, but while we can rely on the mercy of God, we shoud not assume it. (Emphasis mine.)

I’ve heard this many times, but it never really made sense to me. I know we mustn’t “assume” God’s mercy in the sense of saying “It’s OK if I do this horrible thing because God will forgive me” because it is foolish to assume we will have an opportunity to repent. At the same time, hasn’t the Church has always taught that if we repent of our sins, even in the moment of death, God’s mercy is assured?

I can, thus, still see a scenario where doubtful mortal sins (through forgetfulness over time) place our souls in real danger.

Only if we die unrepentent of all our mortal sins, at least with a perfect act of contrition. Because God doesn’t require the impossible of us. And if we have truly forgotten about the circumstances of a mortal sin to know whether it was mortal or not, or even forgotten that we did the deed, then there would be no hope for those in that circumstance.

 

[Matt_Collins]

By the way, Underacloud, feel free to disengage from this conversation at any time!

 

[Bookcat]

Underacloud…I would not quite put it in such an absolute way – though it is true that often for those living a devout Christian life…seeking to follow Christ faithfully etc…mortal sins will tend to stick out like a sore thumb. But again the Church asks for examination of conscience for good reasons. Though too I would note that in the case of a person with scruples --their confessor may curtail such examines …limiting time etc.

As for those who struggle with scruples again I would note for readers that they ought to have a “regular confessor” who can direct them in the midst of such knowing them and knowing their scruples.

 

[Bookcat]

May all who turn to him in confession seeking to make a good confession keep in mind that Jesus is truly the Good Shepherd who knows and loves his sheep…he gives them* true life*!

 

[underacloud]

I’ve heard this many times, but it never really made sense to me. I know we mustn’t “assume” God’s mercy in the sense of saying “It’s OK if I do this horrible thing because God will forgive me” because it is foolish to assume we will have an opportunity to repent. At the same time, hasn’t the Church has always taught that if we repent of our sins, even in the moment of death, God’s mercy is assured?

Yes, absolutely, we know through revelation that God’s mercy is assured. We say sorry (and mean it), he forgives us. Even at the very moment of death, for someone who has ostensibly lead a life contrary to God, forgiveness is possible.

All I meant was that for someone in a state of mortal sin, they need to be careful. Confession restores grace. A perfect act of contrition restores grace. But one shouldn’t assume that God is so forgiving that “I don’t really need to say sorry, do I?”

 

[underacloud]

Underacloud…I would not quite put it in such an absolute way –

Bookcat, what do you think I’ve said that is too absolute? I’m trying to work through the nuances of what we’re discussing, and if I’ve said anything that’s wrong, I’d be pleased to be corrected. Of course, there are elements of this beyond our knowledge (we only know of God what He has chosen to revealed to us), but I’m simply trying to understand the doctrine available to us.

 

[Bookcat]

I will pm…thus will not take the topic elsewhere.