Mortal Sins: ignorance is bliss?

[Cjbhoward]

Such acquiring of wisdom is the work of a lifetime even according to the Catechism.

I agree completely. But I’m still trying to figure it all out.

Just recently I found myself in mortal sin. According to everything I’ve learned, my soul should have been separated from God, unable to earn any merit, unable to receive His grace, etc…

But He felt so close the whole time. I know I shouldn’t “rely” on feelings, but this past week I don’t know what else to say.

& then the whole separated from God thing. How is one ever going to get back to a state of Grace if they can’t receive Grace while in a state of sin?

Obviously I still lack in understanding

 

[Sophie111]

Just recently I found myself in mortal sin. According to everything I’ve learned, my soul should have been separated from God, unable to earn any merit, unable to receive His grace, etc…

I believe the technical term is “cognitive dissonance” - authority teaches us one thing but mature experience (over the years grappling with this quietly) increasingly tells us its somehow bonkers.
You are not alone.
It is part of growing “spiritual b*lls” if you will forgive the French.
In the end if outside authority does not match our sincere inner authority (the voice of God through well formed conscience) guess who trumps who re our own personal and tranquilly made life decisions . And that too is Church teaching which I can agree with.

Hint: “I found myself in mortal sin” is not quite the correct terminology for your situation I suspect.
Yes you may well have broken a commandment, but simply the external conduct of breaking is not called mortal sin. It is called “grave matter”. The Commandments specifies “grave matter” NOT mortal sins. (Though in the old days older priests used to say they were a list of mortal sins).

Grave matter does not become mortal sin until we do so knowingly and with full intention before during and after. it sounds like one of those factors may have been missing the way you describe it.
So good to confess it if you are in doubt but to be honest it could well have been just venial sin which does not separate us from our last end (God) or his sanctifying grace from within. Its more like a sideways movement as you are still running forward. Takes you a bit longer to get there but you are still getting there. Its not as if you stopped and went backwards.

 

[Sophie111]

& then the whole separated from God thing. How is one ever going to get back to a state of Grace if they can’t receive Grace while in a state of sin?

That would be external “actual grace” if you did truly commit mortal sin (which kills the engine, the internal well of living water, of sanctifying grace so to speak). AG (causing you to be contrite) is like a brief external jump start. If you respond then the engine starts up again and you are generating power with God from the inside again.

God is so generous and merciful in the way he treats us with both sanctifying and actual graces.
If only we could do that as well with our own frienemies!

 

[Sophie111]

I am always fascinated by the “selective hearing” that goes on re quotes re conscience from the CCC.
In fact even the CCC demonstrates it is a delicate balancing act between hard liners (“you’ve been told” so break the rules and you sin mortally) and the loose liners (“do whatever your feelings tell you and you cannot go wrong”). So lets rebalance the Force Luke:

1777 When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.
1778 In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and
right. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.
1782 He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience.
1783 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. [NB: It is not called a “correct conscience”]
1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task.

1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with
reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience… it can happen that moral conscience…makes erroneous judgments.
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility… If - on the contrary - the subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him.
1793 …one must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
1794 The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind
choice.

Note the use of various key terms.
A “well formed conscience” is not considered to necessarily be a “correct conscience”.
It may be an “erroneous conscience”…even if well formed.
If this “erroneous conscience” is also a “certain conscience” it must be followed under pain of personal sin.

Erroneous conscience’s always lead the person along a blind path of choices he must follow. They are only sinful choices if the error is “vincible” (capable of being corrected by wise counsel) and effort has not been made to form it on this point.

1791 suggests little culpability due to ignorance is the norm - though culpable exceptions are frequent. This is because correct education of the conscience is the work of a lifetime and is difficult even in the Christian Community.

 

[Vico]

I am always fascinated by the “selective hearing” that goes on re quotes re conscience from the CCC.
In fact even the CCC demonstrates it is a delicate balancing act between hard liners (“you’ve been told” so break the rules and you sin mortally) and the loose liners (“do whatever your feelings tell you and you cannot go wrong”). So lets rebalance the Force Luke:

1777 When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.
1778 In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and
right. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.
1782 He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience.
1783 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. [NB: It is not called a “correct conscience”]
1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task.

Left out one important item, especially since there can be a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience or rejection of the Church’s authority and teaching, which could be contrary to what is mistakenly thought to be a certain conscience:

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

 

[Sophie111]

Left out one important item…

You are the one over-emphasising the hardline extreme so I think you must have left it out of your list not me .

I am the one over-emphasising the “love God and do what you like” brigade so as to achieve a Catholic balance here - even if it is somewhat Jekyll and Hyde.

there can be a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience or rejection of the Church’s authority and teaching…

Yes this is one of many ways how an erroneous conscience comes about.
But if it is firm it must be followed…and will only be culpable if the ignorance is vincible.

which could be contrary to what is mistakenly thought to be a certain conscience:

Indeed, please read what a “certain” conscience is. It is not a “correct conscience” which many poorly formed fellow members often think. One can have a “certain” “erroneous” and non culpable conscience cant we.

Correctly well-forming our conscience is the work of a lifetime.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Left out one important item…

You are the one over-emphasising the hardline extreme so I think you must have left it out of your list not me .

I am the one over-emphasising the “love God and do what you like” brigade so as to achieve a Catholic balance here - even if it is somewhat Jekyll and Hyde.

there can be a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience or rejection of the Church’s authority and teaching…

Yes this is one of many ways how an erroneous conscience comes about.
But if it is firm it must be followed…and will only be culpable if the ignorance is vincible.

which could be contrary to what is mistakenly thought to be a certain conscience:

Indeed, please read what a “certain” conscience is. It is not a “correct conscience” which many poorly formed fellow members often think. One can have a “certain” “erroneous” and non culpable conscience cant we.

Correctly well-forming our conscience is the work of a lifetime.

Certain conscience is: “A state of mind when it has no prudent fear of being wrong about its judgment on some moral issue and firmly decides that some action is right or wrong.” - Modern Catholic Dictionary

 

[GLam1761]

“Ignorance of Scriptures, is ignorance of Christ” says
St. Jerome. If you don’t know Scripture, how can you
say you know the Author? You are not in bliss, in fact
you are MISSING OUT, my friend in Christ!!

 

[Sophie111]

Sophie111:

Vico:

Left out one important item…

You are the one over-emphasising the hardline extreme so I think you must have left it out of your list not me .

I am the one over-emphasising the “love God and do what you like” brigade so as to achieve a Catholic balance here - even if it is somewhat Jekyll and Hyde.

there can be a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience or rejection of the Church’s authority and teaching…

Yes this is one of many ways how an erroneous conscience comes about.
But if it is firm it must be followed…and will only be culpable if the ignorance is vincible.

which could be contrary to what is mistakenly thought to be a certain conscience:

Indeed, please read what a “certain” conscience is. It is not a “correct conscience” which many poorly formed fellow members often think. One can have a “certain” “erroneous” and non culpable conscience cant we.

Correctly well-forming our conscience is the work of a lifetime.

Certain conscience is: “A state of mind when it has no prudent fear of being wrong about its judgment on some moral issue and firmly decides that some action is right or wrong.” - Modern Catholic Dictionary

Indeed.
There is no mention here whether the certain conscience is objectively correct or erroneous.
It is merely “prudential”…and the subject obviously believes they are objectively correct.

 

[Vico]

…
There is no mention here whether the certain conscience is objectively correct or erroneous.
It is merely “prudential”…and the subject obviously believes they are objectively correct.

Absence of prudent fear.

 

[Sophie111]

Yes absence of prudent fear suggests it isnt a judgement with the certainty of mathematics but rather a moral certainty.

I leave you to have the last word…which I observe you usually do on CAF even when there is really nothing more to say .

God bless.

 

[Catholicwife32]

Your problem is legalism. The Church’s explanation of mortal sin is a theological development. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It just means the early Christians did not have as thorough of an understanding as we do. The Orthodox kind of preserve this. They believe that salvation can be lost due to sin, but they have no logical criteria for discerning in.

So the desire to discern when one is in a state of mortal sin pushed for the theological development. And it’s not wrong however there is a problem. We like salvation as a system. What hoops do I have to jump through in order to be saved? The early Christians had an issue with people delaying their baptisms until they were near death in order to guarantee their salvation. I really suggest reading CS Lewis’ chapter in Mere Christianity on whether Christianity is hard or easy. But I’ll just provide a link to the section of the audiobook

Here’s the thing about worrying about mortal sin. It shows that you’re lukewarm. It shows that you’re trying to figure out what the bare minimum is, that you’re just running from Hell with it’s flames biting you at the heels. You keep reminding yourself it’s there to try to get yourself to run harder.

The ironic thing is that the way forward is counterintuitive. To get to Heaven, you have to go of thoughts of yourself and turn outward to a sincere love of God and a love for others. Indeed the more you worry about Hell, the more you are thinking about yourself. You must forget yourself.

The scary thing about doing this is that it eats away at your pride. You will see just where your heart lies when you see what your sins are when you let go of “I must avoid Hell.” Indeed, you’ll feel like you’re falling backward, but you’re actually stepping forward into humility. And all those people still using fear to motivate themselves will balk at you. They have pride like the Pharisees.

From that point on, the issue is about the principal of graduality. You goal is to grow in virtue and grow in a greater sincerity of love for God. So the people using fear of Hell are like people who know the goal is to lift 500 lbs. They put the weights on the barbell lift and fail. When they put the effort in and their muscles give up, they decide “No full consent of the will. Not a mortal sin.” When they are so tired of the effort that they indulge in not lifting, they say “Okay mortal sin.” Hence their resistance to letting go of the fear. Don’t they need to yell at themselves to try to do their best?

 

[Catholicwife32]

But the humble person knows that they must cultivate virtue, building up their muscles with smaller weights, pacing themselves and exercising. So while their actions may be objectively graver and even more deliberate, they are heading on the road to progress. They are walking toward God and God sees that they are doing this.

And this is very different from a person who decides they are good enough as they are, who doesn’t strive for virtue in the least. The person running from Hell pridefully tends to not distinguish between the two people. Instead, he looks at them both and judges them. His prideful prayers are “Thank God I’m not like them.” And he is actually in the greatest spiritual danger. Because it’s hard to repent of that sin when your repentence of any sin is rooted in spiritual vanity. You already feel like you’re so hard on yourself. How could God ask more of you?

Well, he does but the people who will make it are the ones doing the training.

So go to confession for the grace. Confess grave sins. Confess venial sins. Be as holy as you can be and be deliberate with ALL your choices. Walk step by step on the journey to God, and sincerely fall in love with God, His goodness and the desire to actually do what is right. THAT will lead you to not want to shy away from learning more.