Mortification and the Spiritual Life... Blessed Pier Giorgio and St. John of the Cros

[matthias]

Hello all,

I am having a debate with a fellow Catholic friend. I have been reading St. John of the Cross and he clearly spells out what is necessary to become holy in a systematic way.

Part of St. John OTC’s teaching is that we must not only do penance but mortify our desires and senses.

My friend responded that this is only the Carmelite way and one does not need to do these things at all in order to become a saint. My position is that this is seen in the lives of all the saints in an organic (not systematic way like St. John OTC).

His counter example he always cites is that of “Blessed Pier Giorgio, The Man of the Eight Beatitudes”. My friend says that since Bless. PG was always going to parties and climbing mountains and etc. that he was both constantly enjoying the pleasures of earthly life and becoming a saint. My suspicion is that this saint must have done mortification to eliminate his attachment to earthly goods but I don’t know enough about this saint.

Can anyone give me references to a “universal” teaching on becoming holy that is not attached to a specific religious order. I believe St. John’s teaching relates to everyone especially because he was made a doctor of the Church but my friend refuses to believe this.

Or can anyone show me citations from the life of Blessed Pier Giorgio where he mortified his passions and did penances.

Thanks all.

 

[FCEGM]

Hello all,

I am having a debate with a fellow Catholic friend. I have been reading St. John of the Cross and he clearly spells out what is necessary to become holy in a systematic way.

Part of St. John OTC’s teaching is that we must not only do penance but mortify our desires and senses.

My friend responded that this is only the Carmelite way and one does not need to do these things at all in order to become a saint. My position is that this is seen in the lives of all the saints in an organic (not systematic way like St. John OTC).

His counter example he always cites is that of “Blessed Pier Giorgio, The Man of the Eight Beatitudes”. My friend says that since Bless. PG was always going to parties and climbing mountains and etc. that he was both constantly enjoying the pleasures of earthly life and becoming a saint. My suspicion is that this saint must have done mortification to eliminate his attachment to earthly goods but I don’t know enough about this saint.

Can anyone give me references to a “universal” teaching on becoming holy that is not attached to a specific religious order. I believe St. John’s teaching relates to everyone especially because he was made a doctor of the Church but my friend refuses to believe this.

Or can anyone show me citations from the life of Blessed Pier Giorgio where he mortified his passions and did penances.

Thanks all.

While St. John of the Cross writes of the spiritual development of the soul in a systematic manner, he certainly knew that each person’s spiritual development (if it is developing in sanctity), while running along the same lines in all, will be lived out according the the particular circumstances in which each soul is placed. I’ve not read much about Blessed Pier Giorgio, but just a brief look at the description at the link below shows that your friend’s understanding of this beautiful Blessed’s interior life is very superficial. Just look at his love for Eucharistic Adoration, his tender care for the poor, his patience in his last sufferings. All this doesn’t come about in any way but by the grace of Christ worked-out in the silence of the soul where it dies more and more to self and lives more and more in and for Christ; that is what mortification accomplishes - as St. John of the Cross so clearly teaches.

As you have recognized, his wisdom is for all - as witnessed by his being proclaimed a Doctor of the Church.

3op.org/frassati.php

 

[jimmy]

Hello all,

I am having a debate with a fellow Catholic friend. I have been reading St. John of the Cross and he clearly spells out what is necessary to become holy in a systematic way.

Part of St. John OTC’s teaching is that we must not only do penance but mortify our desires and senses.

My friend responded that this is only the Carmelite way and one does not need to do these things at all in order to become a saint. My position is that this is seen in the lives of all the saints in an organic (not systematic way like St. John OTC).

His counter example he always cites is that of “Blessed Pier Giorgio, The Man of the Eight Beatitudes”. My friend says that since Bless. PG was always going to parties and climbing mountains and etc. that he was both constantly enjoying the pleasures of earthly life and becoming a saint. My suspicion is that this saint must have done mortification to eliminate his attachment to earthly goods but I don’t know enough about this saint.

Can anyone give me references to a “universal” teaching on becoming holy that is not attached to a specific religious order. I believe St. John’s teaching relates to everyone especially because he was made a doctor of the Church but my friend refuses to believe this.

Or can anyone show me citations from the life of Blessed Pier Giorgio where he mortified his passions and did penances.

Thanks all.

The philokalia is a collection of ancient Christian writings that detail the spiritual aspect of Christianity. A main theme is that you must mortify your desires. These writers are not Carmelites. John Cassian, one of the most important westerners when it comes to monasticism, says the same thing. The Carthusians say the same thing. The Cistercians say the same thing. It is not specific to the Carmelites, it is a part of all the Catholic orders. Look at "The Imitation of Christ’, which is a document of the brotherhood of the common life. It talks about mortifying your desires. There is not an order that does not have mortification of desires at its center.

 

[JCPhoenix]

As far as Blessed Pier Giorgio Frassati goes…well, he was going to bars to EVANGELIZE, to meet people where they were at, not necessarily to “party”.

Climbing mountains…well, that’s a pretty gueling deal, which also meant leaving his cushy home and living in extreme environments. Hmmm…that could be a good place for penance and seperation from earthly goods.

Refer to the Bible itself, Jesus’ words, for His teaching is universal, obviously:

The Gospel from last week: 28th Sunday in Ordinary Time, Mark10: 17-27

Lord, what must I do to inherit eternal life? First Jesus tells him to obey the 10 Commandments, and when the man says that he has doen this, Jesus tells him to sell all his things and give to the poor…then come and follow Him. The young man went away sad for he had many things.

Well, Bl. Frassati followed this gospel…he was supporting something like 150 poor families, and he was following Jesus. He is known as the Man of the Beatitudes.

Jesus doesn’t ask for the mundane, and just doing the bare minimum doesn’t buy sainthood…we must do something radical, we must give up our attachments to earthly things, as it discusses in Mark, so we can build up treasure in heaven.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the pleasuers of this earth, such as the Creation (mountains, etc) that God made for us. St. Therese of Lisieux compared herself to a flower in the God’s garden, yet look at her life.

We are called to be like Jesus, yes?

Jesus had nowhere to lay his head…he said so himself. He suffered terribly on our behalf, and all but one of the Apostles followed him. St. Peter was crucified…upside down. St. Bartholomew was flayed alive.

Perhaps your friend should spend more time reading the Gospel, which will give him a far greater understanding of St. John of the Cross.

 

[havemercy]

Have you heard of the carmelite nun St. Therese de L’Enfant Jesus? I highly recommend Story of a Soul.

 

[Joysong]

You looked for a reference that was not monastic or tied to a religious order. How about the words of Christ in Luke 13?

Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? 3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

 

[JCPhoenix]

Another Biblical reference, in Leviticus, the order of Mechizideck (sp?), referred to again in Hebrews.

The priests referred to in Leviticus had to make sin offerings not only for themselves, for for others. The reference to this order has to do with Jesus making his sin offering as the high priest, and our priests as also making such a sacrifice and doing penance for their people, not for themselves.

And of course, the reference to Mark I provided above.

Consider all the Biblical references to fasting and prayer, throughout the OT and the NT.

 

[Joysong]

St. Francis de Sales wrote universally for all who want to live a devout life hidden in God, and he gives this excellent counsel to set out on the right path.

You aim at a devout life, dear child, because as a Christian you know that such devotion is most acceptable to God’s Divine Majesty. — there are also many spurious and idle semblances thereof; and unless you know which is real, you may mistake, and waste your energy in pursuing an empty, profitless shadow.

One man sets great value on fasting, and believes himself to be leading a very devout life, so long as he fasts rigorously, although the while his heart is full of bitterness;–and while he will not moisten his lips with wine, perhaps not even with water, in his great abstinence, he does not scruple to steep them in his neighbour’s blood, through slander and detraction.

Another man reckons himself as devout because he repeats many prayers daily, although at the same time he does not refrain from all manner of angry, irritating, conceited or insulting speeches among his family and neighbours. This man freely opens his purse in almsgiving, but closes his heart to all gentle and forgiving feelings towards those who are opposed to him; while that one is ready enough to forgive his enemies, but will never pay his rightful debts save under pressure.

The same could be said of penance and mortification. I find much help in the words of Jesus who advised that we choose our mortifications according to those things which are “occasions of sin to us.” If the occasion is our eye, pluck it out … if it is the hand, cut it off … etc.

My understanding of St. John’s writings is similar, that we need to concentrate our efforts in removing those disordered attachments and desires that prevent us from spiritually following Jesus. It is to apply the axe to the unfruitful tree.

 

[matthias]

The philokalia is a collection of ancient Christian writings that detail the spiritual aspect of Christianity. A main theme is that you must mortify your desires. These writers are not Carmelites. John Cassian, one of the most important westerners when it comes to monasticism, says the same thing. The Carthusians say the same thing. The Cistercians say the same thing. It is not specific to the Carmelites, it is a part of all the Catholic orders. Look at "The Imitation of Christ’, which is a document of the brotherhood of the common life. It talks about mortifying your desires. There is not an order that does not have mortification of desires at its center.

I have pointed out others. I have even refered to the philokalia. My friend just says that that is monastic spirituality and that isn’t the only spirituality of holiness. Frankly I think he is just in denial because he doesn’t want to face the difficult task of mortifying desires in order to become a saint. I think it is faulty reasoning perhaps subconsciously caused by the very attachments he is not wanting to mortify.

I really think there is only one spirituality of the Church. That is the gospels. I think that these are just lived out in different situations and missions which is what accounts for the different religious orders, etc.

He disagrees and says that mortification of senses is carmelite and/or monastic and as such not essential to the spiritual path to holiness.

 

[matthias]

I think my friend accepts the necessity of sacrafice, love, and penance, but he refuses to see attachments to earthly pleasures as an impediment to union with God. This is the thing that I think St. John of the Cross most clearly articulated. I think St. John OTC would say we may possibly enjoy earthly pleasures but we cannot desire them (have an attachment to them). In otherwords our happiness must depend totally and exclusively on God and we must be totally detached (indifferent) to earthly pleasures, not hating them, and thanking God for them when we recieve them, but not desiring them.

Anyway my friend doesn’t seem to see the value of mortifying our passions/desires/attachment to good food, or other temporal goods. He thinks we should just enjoy all goods in moderation and thank God for them not fasting and not over eating.

The point came up because I was attempting to eat simpler foods and he criticised me for it saying that my actions implied that he was choosing a inferior spiritual path by simply enjoying everything in moderation. I told him I didn’t judge his soul but the path of enjoying pleasures in moderation is definitively inferior in the Christian tradition to mortifying desires. Anyway he’s a good guy but I think he’s wrong on this point. Probably I am wrong on most and he correct but on this one I am fairly sure.

OK… now I’m just rambling…

 

[jimmy]

I have pointed out others. I have even refered to the philokalia. My friend just says that that is monastic spirituality and that isn’t the only spirituality of holiness. Frankly I think he is just in denial because he doesn’t want to face the difficult task of mortifying desires in order to become a saint. I think it is faulty reasoning perhaps subconsciously caused by the very attachments he is not wanting to mortify.

I really think there is only one spirituality of the Church. That is the gospels. I think that these are just lived out in different situations and missions which is what accounts for the different religious orders, etc.

He disagrees and says that mortification of senses is carmelite and/or monastic and as such not essential to the spiritual path to holiness.

That is the doctrine of the Church, not just some monastic order. It is the Christian way. That is why all of Christianity has fasted during lent since the early centuries. That is why many of the eastern Catholic churches fast wednesday and friday of every week. It is to mortify your desires and make yourself stronger. Eating is one of the principle desires. If you can control that and the other principle desires(sleep and sex) you can control all desires. Mortification is central to Christianity.

 

[puzzleannie]

penance and mortification are not the point, nor are other spiritual exercises of value in and of themselves. The fruits of the sacrifices and spiritual exercises the goal. The fruits are humility, obedience, a humble and contrite heart, breaking attachment to sin, conversion, holiness, turning the mind and heart away from the world’s values to Christ. I don’t think you will find a spiritual writer who disagrees with this.