Mortification

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Jennifer132

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Please forgive my many posts of late. It seems in my study on Catholicism I’m wondering about something new and unheard of (by me) every day.

My nephew is coming to stay with us tomorrow, and he lost his dad a few months ago. His mom mentioned today he’s questioning whether God is even real,etc because his dad suffered and died. We are all Protestants.

I started looking at the Catholic view of suffering, and that led to me reading that Pope John Paul II practiced self-flagellation, as well as some of the saints.

I do understand that we are to accept our sufferings with joy because Christ also suffered. And that if we do good and suffer this is commendable before God. There are certain things in my life that cause me to suffer, and I often remind myself and take comfort in these verses from 1 Peter.

I realize Christ mortified himself on the cross. But even still, he didn’t drive the nails into his own hands and crown himself with thorns. He just accepted the abuse of others toward him for our salvation.

I think I understand the idea of mortification through self denial (fasting, abstaining, alms giving, etc). But I’m wondering where is the line drawn between some of these more violent acts of mortification and abuse or excess? I guess I’m having a hard time picturing God being pleased watching his children beat themselves and hurt themselves. Please help me understand this practice. :confused:
 
Jennifer132 said:
Please forgive my many posts of late. It seems in my study on Catholicism I’m wondering about something new and unheard of (by me) every day.

My nephew is coming to stay with us tomorrow, and he lost his dad a few months ago. His mom mentioned today he’s questioning whether God is even real,etc because his dad suffered and died. We are all Protestants.

I started looking at the Catholic view of suffering, and that led to me reading that Pope John Paul II practiced self-flagellation, as well as some of the saints.

I do understand that we are to accept our sufferings with joy because Christ also suffered. And that if we do good and suffer this is commendable before God. There are certain things in my life that cause me to suffer, and I often remind myself and take comfort in these verses from 1 Peter.

I realize Christ mortified himself on the cross. But even still, he didn’t drive the nails into his own hands and crown himself with thorns. He just accepted the abuse of others toward him for our salvation.

I think I understand the idea of mortification through self denial (fasting, abstaining, alms giving, etc). But I’m wondering where is the line drawn between some of these more violent acts of mortification and abuse or excess? I guess I’m having a hard time picturing God being pleased watching his children beat themselves and hurt themselves. Please help me understand this practice. :confused:
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St.Luke’s Gospel tells of those that left the scene after Christ died left beating their chests. So physical mortification is an old practice.
As for the abuse of such mortification i can not really say but the teach does teach against excess.
 
Anyone practicing serious forms of mortification (or desiring to) should be under the very watchful care of a spiritual director. It’s my understanding that traditionally these only took place in religious orders.

Most people practicing mortifications do very small things such as the ones you mentioned or accept the small sufferings that naturally come our way.
 
Mortificarion does not necessarily mean beating or torturing yourself.

Some people jog, go to the gym, run and train for marathons and do healthy types of mortification- and offer this up. It is a discipline that trains your flesh.
Any type of mortification that is dangerous should be discussed with your confessor.
 
We are not to directly damage our bodies, however, bodily** self denial** (as done during Lent) is a form of mortification and can be spiritually useful.

ICXC NIKA
 
Jennifer, you have raised a very difficult issue. I have spent time reading about this, both in current practice and historically. Physical mortification is very much a part of ascetic Christianity. I certainly have asked friends and acquaintances who have practiced - or still practice - flagellation. One used it weekly in a religious order up until just after Vatican II. Another currently uses the whip as well as the cilice.

The concept is puzzling to me. I understand that some believe that the more pain one suffers, the closer to God one grows. There is also the belief that the body is evil and we must subdue all desires of the flesh. Sexual feeling are bound into all this, to say the least.

Carolyn Walker Bynum is a medieval historian who has written on women religious and food. Some nuns refused all food but the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist. They became holy anorexics. (See ‘Holy Feast, Holy Fast’.)

The more I read the saints, like Teresa of Avila (‘Either let me suffer or let me die…’) or Catherine of Sienna or Padre Pio, with their very physical self-inflicted mortification, I am concerned.

Is it holy? Is it healthy? Does it bring us closer to God? Are all ascetics called to beating themselves and inflicting great wounds as an offering to God? And what is required of the people in the pew, as it were. Is mortification making a return theologically and in practice?

I wonder about Opus Dei taking on physical mortification. It seems not to be a thing of the past; it is very much a part of Catholic spirituality today.

So I share your concerns. Lots of questions here.
 
Jennifer, I agree with everything you wrote. ComplineSanFran’s post also resonates with me, though I have not witnessed it or thought about it to that extent. I think of it as a pious practice which is optional and unnecessary and possibly open to abuse. One should not injure oneself.
 
For me the key word is prudence. We are to act based on prudence. I see little point in adding to one’s bodily sufferings as they come naturally to most people throughout life in the form of illness, disability, ageing etc. The question is how do we respond to suffering whether physical, psychological, emotional, spiritual etc. Do we protest, resist and seek to take inordinate steps to avoid suffering or do we accept it as coming from the hand of God and unite it to Christ’s? That is not to say that we are to avoid seeking medical care and treatment if need be. We can of course, and oftentimes should seek to alleviate pain, discomfort, illness and disease. The issue is one of perspective and proportionality.

In today’s world and culture which so elevates the body and the physical there seems little concern on the part of most for the care of the soul. My view is that the priority should be the soul first and then the body. A preoccupation with the body to the neglect of the soul is to get things in the wrong order, hence Catholicism’s concern with ensuring things are always properly ordered. Contemporary society has things terribly backward hence the many and great disorders. A youth culture obsessed with physical fitness, appearance and perfection has squeezed out any place for care of the soul. We should seek first the Kingdom of God and then all things will be added. Our Father knows what we need. He knows we are physical beings as well as spiritual ones. He will not give us a stone when we need bread. He understands us as He made us. But His first care is for our soul, for our eternal destiny.

We are to strive to run the race keeping our eyes on the prize in St Paul’s words. Forming and keeping a healthy attitude to the body and the soul while maintaining a reasonable outlook on suffering seems to me to be important in this race. God does not wish or will suffering but he does permit it for His own purposes. Many of the Saints suffered greatly in terms of health such as St Teresa of Avila, St Bernadette, St Pio, St Faustina etc. What stands out is that they saw in suffering a great opporunity to grow in holiness. When viewed rightly, suffering in whatever form can help us to grow spiritually. It is our understanding and approach that needs cultivating first.

God will allow suffering or any trial for that matter for our own good and/or the good of others. God’s ways are not our ways. A world that says that God cannot exist or if He does, because of evil and suffering He cannot be good, is a world that simply does not understand God. God sees the bigger picture. We do not. It is that simple. God can and does draw great good out of apparent evil. Great Saints were formed in concentration camps e.g. St Kolbe, St Brandsma etc.

The downturn in the prodigal son’s fortunes to the world appeared a disaster but in God’s marvellous providence it opened up the way to salvation for him. The world is deaf and blind but thankfully for us, our great God and Father has unlimited compassion on us for that reason. O that today we would listen to His voice.
 
Beryllos said:
Jennifer, I agree with everything you wrote. ComplineSanFran’s post also resonates with me, though I have not witnessed it or thought about it to that extent. I think of it as a pious practice which is optional and unnecessary and possibly open to abuse. One should not injure oneself.
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I imagine it IS open to abuse. I’ve noticed that Catholics have difficulty with scrupulosity. That is not a word I often hear outside of RC circles. It makes me wonder what about the RC church that creates a desire/need/environment for excess and abuse and ‘scrupulosity.’ But I digress.

‘…open to abuse. One should not injure oneself.’ But that is what mortification and flagellation and self-inflicted suffering IS. What do you think whips and spikes ARE?

I live in San Francisco and this community is pretty open about various sexual communities. Those who practice SM also use whips and spikes and other torturous items. I haven’t made a formal study of it, but there are certainly parallels to the practices. Sexual/spiritual intensities are probably very similar. Certainly some of the writings of the (mostly women) monastics who practice mortifications are quite sexual.

As I said, there are many questions. And I’m certain this has been an area that scholars and theologians have long studied. It is interesting from an academic point of view, but for me, it is more of a spiritual puzzle.
 
Self-flagellation is self harming, that is that. Canonisation does not mean every choice a person ever made was right, nor that they were in perfect mental health throughout their life. Anyone considering extreme forms of self-mortification probably need psychological help.
 
peter26 said:
Self-flagellation is self harming, that is that. Canonisation does not mean every choice a person ever made was right, nor that they were in perfect mental health throughout their life. Anyone considering extreme forms of self-mortification probably need psychological help.
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Where’s the line, then, between extreme and, for example, the disciplines that Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa practiced, which are considered ‘normal’ mortifications? They included flagellation with a belt, lying on a stone floor all night, wearing a cilice, fasting for days, wearing clothing that causes pain, among other things.
 
The obvious line is that once someone crosses the point of a high risk of causing themselves serious medical harm, then they have gone too far.
 
Mortification is simply doing the opposite of what our passions desire to do in order to discipline ourselves, and doing this because we love Jesus and want to be more like Him.

For most of us, that involves keeping our big mouth shut when that fella cuts us off, or taking care of our children without whining about them, or being merciful to our wife or husband when they’re crabby.

But some people can do more, and some people, through proper spiritual direction, impose harsher disciplines on their bodies. So, they may sleep on the floor instead of in the bed. That’s because Jesus had no place to lay His head. They may fast for days and days and days. That’s because Christ fasted in the desert for 40 days.They may undergo flagellation. That’s because they look on a crucifix and see how tired He was for them.

The key is imitation of Christ.

But only some are conformed to Him in an extremely profound manner, and most of us are simply begging to touch the hem of His garment.
 
I see two classifications of self-inflictions within faith traditions. One is relative to holy days. For instance on Good Friday, there are communities that hold semi-crucifixions, mostly in Central and South America and in the Philippines. People either volunteer to be put on a cross, or they inflict the wounds of Jesus as bystanders to the reenactment. In Islam, Shi’ites honor the holy day of Ashura by self-flagilating with handfuls of knives. It’s also held in the public arena and very bloody.

Then there is the personal devotion of mortification that has always been encouraged by the Church. And just when Vatican II seems to have said that this is not necessarily a healthy thing, Opus Dei brings it back and says it IS.

I’m thinking that most non-Roman Catholic Christians would find this disturbing, so it isn’t a dynamic within Christianity as a whole. (I’m thinking of a Quaker friend and what her reaction would be.) What is it that the Roman Church holds as especially holy where others do not?

(The photos below are Muslims on the left and Christians on the right).
 
While it is true that the current society **may **overvalue the human body at the expense of the soul (no biggie, as many no longer believe that there is a soul), as Catholics, it behooveth us to avoid the counter error as well, which is to despise the body.

ICXC NIKA
 
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