Motu Proprio 'doesn't apply here': Archbishop of Jakarta (Formal Schism?)

[Markstorm]

So the pope is not another bishop? So he constitutes a new level of ordination above that of the other bishops? Sorry but that is not Catholic.

That is a despicable misrepresentation of what I said. Your “just another bishop” argument was that the Pope does not hold power above the other bishops as though the office of Pope and bishop were identical in authority. This is plainly false.

All throughout this debate you refer to the authority of bishops and their autonomy. You want to give them the right to disobey the See of Peter, and not be subjected to disciplinary action. This position contradicts the “supreme” power exercised “unhindered” by the Successor of Peter. You’ll want to look into what the Catholic position actually is before spouting off accusations.

 

[Pious_Mat]

So the pope is not another bishop? So he constitutes a new level of ordination above that of the other bishops? Sorry but that is not Catholic.

You missed the “just” part, Jim. He is another Bishop, but has special status among Bishops, as per the above quotations. Ironically, there seems to be some parallel to your continued insistence that Petrine Primacy doesn’t exist and the Archbishop’s insistence that he doesn’t have to obey a Motu Proprio–both you are certainly well acquainted with what the literature on the subject says, and still cling to an uncanonical position.

Let’s remember that obedience is a virtue, friends.

 

[bones_IV]

I have read the mp and the accompanying letter. No matter how right it is, the Church is not a dictatorship.

Using your logic we might as well say that the orthodox Catholic faith led to the holocaust! What stupid reasoning on your part. Study the faith please.

 

[jimmy]

You missed the “just” part, Jim. He is another Bishop, but has special status among Bishops, as per the above quotations. Ironically, there seems to be some parallel to your continued insistence that Petrine Primacy doesn’t exist and the Archbishop’s insistence that he doesn’t have to obey a Motu Proprio–both you are certainly well acquainted with what the literature on the subject says, and still cling to an uncanonical position.

Let’s remember that obedience is a virtue, friends.

I do not deny petrine primacy. I only deny this idea that the pope has this super authority that he becomes a higher level.

Obedience is a virtue, I agree.

Using your logic we might as well say that the orthodox Catholic faith led to the holocaust! What stupid reasoning on your part. Study the faith please.

And what reasoning are you looking at? I am not sure what you gather from the quote you quoted. I wasn’t saying the mp is a dictatorial statement. I was saying that the pope doesn’t act as a dictator removing bishops because they do not follow his motu proprio’s.

Maybe I have derailed this thread too much and should quietly bow out of this discussion.

 

[bones_IV]

I wasn’t saying the mp is a dictatorial statement.

But you said,

The church is not a dictatorship

 

[Markstorm]

Maybe I have derailed this thread too much and should quietly bow out of this discussion.

Maybe you’ve denied the authority of the Pope too much and should quietly read 882.

 

[jimmy]

But you said,

I wasn’t making a connection between the statement that the Church is not a dictatorship and the mp. They were somewhat seperate statements; they were not a logical connection. Maybe I should have written my post differently.

 

[bones_IV]

I wasn’t making a connection between the statement that the Church is not a dictatorship and the mp. They were somewhat seperate statements; they were not a logical connection. Maybe I should have written my post differently.

But that’s what you implied. Say what you mean, mean what you say.

 

[otjm]

Come on, folks, let’s call off the dogs.

Whether he stated it correctly or wrote hastily, jimmy was responding to the issue of the pope excommunicating the bishop of Jakarta over the bishop’s refusal to allow the MP to be carried out.

His response to the issue of excommunication was correct to the extent that it is not the response either this pope or a whole lot of other popes who preceeded him would give.

His comment about the Church not being a dictatorship is correct. Popes don’t go around excommunicating people who disagree with them; if you doubt this, then you haven’t been paying much attentiton over the last 60 years. There have been a few people who have been excommunicated, and few is the operative term.

Put it in perspective - particularly the comment by Markstorm about “all in good time” - Since he was elected pope, Benedict 16 has had lunch at the Vatican with Hans Kung. Hello, is anyone at all paying any attention at all? If either Kung or the bishop are candidates for excommunication, Kung with his problems with doctrinal issues is way far more a likely candidate for excommunication than the bishop. and Kung isn’t getting himslef cast out into the outer darkness.

I remember all the comments about a “smackdown” coming when Benedict was elected. Didn’t happen. Ain’t fonna happen. Will there be corrections? Undobutedly. will it occur as a smackdown? Nope.

Maybe I read jimmy wrong, but I think what he was trying to say was essentially that the pope - this one or others who have preceeded him - don’t go around excommunicating those who spout off they will not follow his rules. I don’t see jimmy saying anything about the pope not enforcing his rules, but there are many and subtle ways of accomplishing that. And enforcing the trules does not mean that the enfocement happens in a whip-snap fashion. The Church may not always succeed, but it certainly attempts to act in a Christ-like fashion. Christ did not excommunicate the Pharisees; he had harsh words for them, but he always sought to lead them to the truth, not to present the truth and then blow everyone out of the water who did not immediately accept it.

Like JKirk, I suspect the bishop of Jakarta will be addressed - not by the pope but by the commission he empowered to fulfill this rule, and I suspect most of it will never see the press. No heads will roll; sorry if some of you are salivating over the prospect.

Nothing in this papacy indicates that this pope is weak willed. On the other hand, nothing indicates that he is going to run rough shod over any and every person who disagrees with him; and if you think I am wrong, take a look at the bits and pieces that have leaked out as to how he set up the MP -constant and repeated meetings, leading rather than prodding and forcing. and to anyone who watched him in his previous office, the “pit bull” image he was given by the press was given by a press that couldn’t comprehend anyone ever being required to follow any rules whatever. It simply was not how he operated in that office.

Again - he had lunch with Kung. If that doesn’t tell you volumes, you are not paying attention.

 

[Markstorm]

His response to the issue of excommunication was correct to the extent that it is not the response either this pope or a whole lot of other popes who preceeded him would give.

We’ll see what the Holy Father does or does not do. I trust his judgment.

Put it in perspective - particularly the comment by Markstorm about “all in good time” - Since he was elected pope, Benedict 16 has had lunch at the Vatican with Hans Kung. Hello, is anyone at all paying any attention at all?

Yes. I had lunch with my neo-liberal ultra-feminist friend. And I will not hesitate for a split second to proclaim her beliefs to be entirely incorrect.

Again - he had lunch with Kung. If that doesn’t tell you volumes, you are not paying attention.

I actually find it hilarious that you are harping on this point. By what he has written and taught as a professor, Kung has already separated himself from the Faith. Using him as an example just shows that the Holy Father can be courteous to those who have fallen away, but there is no evidence to suggest that he will perpetually withhold discipline.

 

[otjm]

We’ll see what the Holy Father does or does not do. I trust his judgment.

Yes. I had lunch with my neo-liberal ultra-feminist friend. And I will not hesitate for a split second to proclaim her beliefs to be entirely incorrect.

I actually find it hilarious that you are harping on this point. By what he has written and taught as a professor, Kung has already separated himself from the Faith. Using him as an example just shows that the Holy Father can be courteous to those who have fallen away, but there is no evidence to suggest that he will perpetually withhold discipline.

I too trust his judgement; try reading what I said.

Harping? Or is it just that you don’t like what I said? As to perpetually withholding discipline, apparently you are simply not familiar with the issue. Discipline was not withheld. It simply did not satisfy those who wanted a pound of flesh.

There are many levels and degrees of discipline, and the Church generally, and this pope particularly from the days of the dicastery to now, reflect a loving (charitible, if you would rather) approach to discipline as opposed to a harsh one. He, of anyone, knows what screws to tighten to accomplish what he whishes to, and has taken the approach repeatedly of counsel as opposed to reaction. I certainly hope those who await the great smackdown look good in blue, as they will have to hold their breath for a long time.

Harping. I love it; I make two comments and I am harping. Thanks, I remember that!

 

[TMC]

The Pope is a Bishop, but first amongst the bishops. The Church has always held to the primacy of the Pope, but the real authority of the Pope has varied over time. I think that Papal authority is at a modern high point now, bolstered by both VI and VII, and made effective through modern communications and travel. Even back when the Pope wielded secular authority he likely had less power at the edges of the Church – for example, back in the day the Pope may never hear what was going on in Jakarta.

As for today and this contrversy, I agree that the Church is not a dictatorship, but the Pope has a lot of authority. He has to be judicious in applying his authority, however. I can’t see this incident even approaching something like ex communication or even replacing this bishop. The Church has a 2000 yr outlook. The Pope will get his way in time. Maybe this bishop has legitimate pastoral concerns over how those under his charge will receive and react to the EF. (Not saying he is right, but let’s be charitable.) I am guessing there will be a lot of discussion and some eventual ‘clarifications’. May take some time, though.

 

[childofmary1143]

The Pope as any CEO of a corporation can delegate discipline too. I can think of a certain Msgr. Ranjith to correct the Bishop of Jakarta. Then watch the fur fly!!!

 

[Markstorm]

I too trust his judgement; try reading what I said.

I didn’t say that you don’t. Try reading.

Harping? Or is it just that you don’t like what I said?

No, harping. Why ask such a stupid question?

I certainly hope those who await the great smackdown look good in blue, as they will have to hold their breath for a long time.

Holding our breaths? Hardly. If the Holy Father decides to do more, we’re with him. If he thinks that’s not the way, certainly there’s justification for that also. Try reading when I say that I trust him to do the right thing.

Thanks, I remember that!

You betcha.

 

[jimmy]

But that’s what you implied. Say what you mean, mean what you say.

Don’t tell me what I implied. I know exactly what I wrote and it is not what you are telling me I wrote. The pope doesn’t excommunicate those who simply do not follow his mp’s. That is a fact.

 

[bones_IV]

Don’t tell me what I implied. I know exactly what I wrote and it is not what you are telling me I wrote. The pope doesn’t excommunicate those who simply do not follow his mp’s. That is a fact.

But you don’t go around making controversial statements like that.