Moved by the Spirit, the Protestant Interpretation

[JustaServant]

So youre saying protestants cant be guided by the holy spirit? Id hate to think every person who has been saved from their sin through protestanism was somehow not led by the spirit. What about the tens of thousands of former catholics who now call themselves protestant? Are they not still being guided by the spirit? One would think that if the spirit only led people to catholicism the numbers into and out of the church would be very one sided, and yet statistics show they are not. For every minister turned priest, there’s a former priest now claiming protestanism.

The holy spirit will never lead someone away from Jesus. People are led to Jesus many different ways.

Are you saying the Holy Spirit would never lead someone to the Catholic Church?

 

[BA11]

Documentation please.

A good start is googling the list of those executed as heretics by the church. Some were loons, but many had a simple difference of belief not entirely radical and had a following. What is now protestanism was just the tipping point of a large enough following combined serious unrest in the church. Luther would have easily been executed had he done what he did 50 years earlier.

The story of Ramihrdus of Cambrai is a good one to start with, as he was both rational and not radical and had a decent following…several of whom were killed as well. Another is the Lollards of the 14th century, who taught of an invisible body of believers and against te real presence and were systematically executed prior to ultimately merging with the reformation. Groups against the formal papacy and works based salvation date to as early as the 5th century, and Rome never let any get off te ground.

Saying the church was the only game in town for 1500 years is all well and good, but its at best intellectual dishonesty. The formal church as we know it didnt even exist until the 4th century, and thousands of offshots were shot down.

One of the big reasons I cant be a catholic despite respecting certain aspects moreso than some protestant ones is the shocking revisionist history that studying history in a formal university setting reveals. The one and only church for 1500 years argument is widely regarded as one of history’s great lies in academia. It just doesnt hold up to ormal historical study.

 

[BA11]

Are you saying the Holy Spirit would never lead someone to the Catholic Church?

Im saying the holy spirit leads us to christ in one way or another, catholicism being one of those ways. Catholics are no less saved and no less real in their testimony of faith.

 

[JonNC]

Hopefully my answer will respond to your question. But remember the Holy Spirit will never lead anyone away from the Church God established. The Catholic Church is that church. Now remember what Paul tells us, imitate me as a imitate The Lord, follow the traditions that we have professed to orally or written.

One of the most compelling verses to tell these Protestants pastors/ preachers is this verse from Galatians, its Galatians 1:8-9 but even if we, or angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which you have received, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you have received, let him be accursed.

This verse tells me reaffirms what our Lord Jesus said, be aware of false prophets. A lot of these Protestant pastors say the Holy Spirit has touch them to start a new church but according to Paul said they are wrong.

I would say that the Gospel we prach is not contrary to the Gospel received by the apostles, and in fact, reflects it. Be that as it may, what is curious is how the Catholic Church talks about us:

From the Catholic Catechism:

"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

The Spirit, according to the Catholic Catechism, IS guiding/ using “the Churches and ecclesial communities”.

As for pastors: From the US Council of Catholic Bishops

1. Catholic judgment on the authenticity of Lutheran ministry need not be of an all-or-nothing nature. The Decree on Ecumenism of Vatican II distinguished between relationships of full ecclesiastical communion and those of imperfect communion to reflect the varying degrees of differences with the Catholic Church.(164) The communion of these separated communities with the Catholic Church is real, even though it is imperfect. Furthermore, the decree positively affirmed:

Our separated brothers and sisters also celebrate many sacred actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each church or community, and must be held capable of giving access to that communion in which is salvation.(165)

Commenting on this point, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, wrote in 1993 to Bavarian Lutheran bishop Johannes Hanselmann:

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)

If the actions of Lutheran pastors can be described by Catholics as “sacred actions” that “can truly engender a life of grace,” if communities served by such ministers give “access to that communion in which is salvation,” and if at a eucharist at which a Lutheran pastor presides is to be found “the salvation-granting presence of the Lord,”** then Lutheran churches cannot be said simply to lack the ministry given to the church by Christ and the Spirit.** In acknowledging the imperfect koinonia between our communities and the access to grace through the ministries of these communities, we also acknowledge a real although imperfect koinonia between our ministries.

Jon

 

[Publisher]

What is the best way to respond when a Protestant says the Spirit leads them into all truth… (basically claiming to be infallible)

**Also another interesting heresy I have come across is protestants who say the Spirit is a Feeling (Usually unknowingly). They say things like, “Did you feel the Spirit?”, “I felt the Spirit in that Church opposed to this other Church…” **

I even had a person tell me in a Protestant Bible study not to correct another Protestant but let her interpret it by the Spirit and how she feels about it… Whhhaat? Then after the study he told me I was to pushy and that I needed to let the Spirit discern things individually for the person.

Interesting observation…you will find that very same “heresy” (your words) spoken by Catholics on this board when they seek to relay their individual experiences as they enter into a Catholic meeting house verses a Protesant meeting house, about how it “feels different” because the consecrated bread is present.

Is that also a “heresy”?

 

[hn160]

Lutherans let Scripture interpret Scripture. There is a good book on the subject titled Bibical Interpretation, The Only Right Way by David Kuske.

 

[Azygos]

Lutherans let Scripture interpret Scripture. There is a good book on the subject titled Bibical Interpretation, The Only Right Way by David Kuske.

Scripture cannot interpret scripture… That is just silly.

 

[JonNC]

Scripture cannot interpret scripture… That is just silly.

The intention here is to say that one cannot look at verses, etc. in isolation, but must consider the entirety of scripture. In so doing, one gets a grasp of what scripture means.
This is why proof-texting can be misleading.

Jon