Mt 5:27-30

[pilchard]

‘You have heard that it was said, “You shall not commit adultery.” But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell.

The above is RSV translation - but the line I’m interested in is usually translated as “and if your hand offend thee…”

Considering the passage as a whole - when Jesus says -“and if your hand offend thee” people might interpret it figuratively - but surely - taking the passage as a whole - surely Jesus was talking here about self-abuse…

What do people think?

 

[Kristina_P]

pilchard:

The above is RSV translation - but the line I’m interested in is usually translated as “and if your hand offend thee…”

Considering the passage as a whole - when Jesus says -“and if your hand offend thee” people might interpret it figuratively - but surely - taking the passage as a whole - surely Jesus was talking here about self-abuse…

What do people think?

I think it’s important that Christ included the eye and the hand as things that could cause you to sin. It’s the eye that sees and causes us to covet or lust, and it’s the hand that reaches out to steal or to satisfy lust in a sinful manner. I’ve always taken it to mean, “If you can’t stop sinning, then remove your ability to sin. It’s better to be blind or maimed than to be in slavery to sin.” Thankfully, we also have other recourse, so the hatchet-work is really a last resort.

 

[flamingsword]

I think your reading into the passage too much. Therefore I have to agree with Kristina P.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Pilchard,

In the bible, to cut off a portion of the body of people means to put an individual culprit to death.

NAB LEV 20 Penalties for Various Sins.

The LORD said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites: Anyone, whether an Israelite or an alien residing in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech shall be put to death. Let his fellow citizens stone him. I myself will turn against such a man and cut him off from the body of his people: for in giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name.”

Mathew 5:27 parallels Mathew 5:22. In 5:22 Jesus does not abolish the law (Mathew 5:17) instead Jesus intensifies the law. Jesus says the law says that murders will go to hell but I tell you if anyone even grows angry with his brother, and if the Sanhedrin hold him bound to this sin, he burns in hell.

NAB MAT 5:21

"You have heard the commandment, 'You shall not commit murder; every murderer shall be liable to judgement.’ What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. The law calls for adulterers to be stoned. Jesus, like the above situation with murder and anger and abusive language, intesifies the law on adultery and calls on the Church to put eternal death pressure (binding of sins) on even those who look lustfully at another woman (ponagraphy).

Like the Sanhedrin, Jesus gives His Apostles the power to bind and loost sin in heaven. If Jesus binds a person to sin in heaven, that person cannot go to heaven and are cast into Gehenna. If Apostolic Successors call upon Jesus to bind an individual (limb) of the body of the Church to sin, that limb is cut off from the life of the body of the Church and cast into Gehenna. Church leaders are not to let the whole body of the Church go to hell from being lead astray by sinning individuals, as it was in the days before the flood.

Please visit Throwing Stones

**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” **NAB NUM 15:30 **

"But anyone who sins defiantly, whether he be a native or and alien, insults the LORD, and shall be cut off from among his people. Since he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken his commandment, he must be cut off. He has only himself to blame." The Sabbath-breaker. While the Israelites were in the desert,** a man was discovered gathering wood on the sabbath day**. Those who caught him at it brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. But they kept him in custody, for there was no clear decision as to what should be done with him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “This man shall be put to death; let the whole community stone him outside the camp.” So the whole community led him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

NAB MAT 18:5

**"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna. **

 

[St.Curious]

Considering the passage as a whole - when Jesus says -“and if your hand offend thee” people might interpret it figuratively - but surely - taking the passage as a whole - surely Jesus was talking here about self-abuse…

I don’t think it’s talking about self-abuse at all. When you refer to this translation that uses an older form of english, you must realize that the word “offend” and more importantly that figure of speach “offend thee” is being quite specific in being quite general.

In that statement, Jesus is saying that if you “hand offend thee” or if you “hand offends you” in anyway. It is a general/broad statement, offends you in anyway. Therefore you have to go back to the context to find the situation upon which this is built, and you find that that situation in commiting sin.

Is it talking about masterbation or self-mutilation? Perhaps, but in this context it appears to be more of an external, unconscience stimulus. If you read about the eye…

You shall not commit adultery.” But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away;

In a way, the “right eye” is being personified. It is spoken of as if it can have a mind of its own. “If your right eyes causes you to sin,” refers to your right eye (subject) acting in such a way to cause you (a different subject) to sin. This is speaking to the unconscience glances, movements, and thoughts that we as people have daily. This very much screams “venial sin!” in the eyes of Catholics. The difference is Jesus’ message.

If one lets their right eye do such sinning, he is telling that person to tear it out and throw it away, because it would be better to loose an eye than to burn in hell. Is he literally telling the guy at the mall who never lusts after women to tear out his eye because he did it once? I don’t believe so.

Consider this, if nothing else, a warning to those “repeat offenders” or sinners who lust all the time, or offend with their hands and know they are doing these things. Consider it also a warning to those who can’t seem to stop and hate themselves for doing it. If someone can’t seem to stop lusting no matter how hard they try, they need to seek out counseling and need to seek out God. The tearing out of their eye can be done symbolically through prayer and counseling, as well as, physically.

Any thoughts?

 

[Grace_and_Glory]

One priest I know spoke about this passage and about how we are not to literally mutilate ourselves. We are to tear out our eyes in a metaphorical way. The example he used is if you’re going to go see a movie with your friends, and you know that there are scenes in it that would cause you to fall into sin. Even if your friends can see that without it being a near occasion of sin, you should not see the movie with them because for you it is a threat to your purity. In that sense, you are denying your eyes the freedom to look at something and are thus spiritually tearing them out.

 

[Steven_Merten]

No doubt Mathew 5 is one of the scriptural verses from Christ where the Church developed anathema. In Anathema a person is “cut off” from the life of the body of the Church by Apostolic Successors and cast into hell, lest he repent. Successors do this by the power of the Keys to the Kingdom to loost and to bind, the “Sword of heaven”. The Church “cuts off” from her body that which pulls the body of the Church into hell.

Anathema

“To understand the word anathema”, says Vigouroux, “we should first go back to the real meaning of herem of which it is the equivalent. Herem comes from the word haram, to cut off, to separate, to curse, and indicates that which is cursed and condemned to be cut off or exterminated, whether a person or a thing, and in consequence, that which man is forbidden to make use of.”

**But he who is separated from God is united to the devil, which explains why St. Paul, instead of anathematizing, sometimes delivers a person over to **Satan Anathema signifies also to be overwhelmed with maledictions, as in I Cor., xvi, 22: "If any man love not our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema." At an early date the Church adopted the word anathema to signify the exclusion of a sinner from the society of the faithful;

A Council of Tours desires that after three warnings there be recited in chorus Psalm cviii against the usurper of the goods of the Church, that he may fall into the curse of Judas, and “that he may be not only excommunicated, but anathematized, and that he may be stricken by the sword of Heaven”.

"Know that Engeltrude is not only under the ban of excommunication, which separates her from the society of the brethren, but under the anathema, which separates from the body of Christ, which is the Church."

In passing this sentence, the pontiff…
…pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."

"He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions. Amen."

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

 

[chrisg93]

The important thing to remember in this passage is that the hand or eye does not commit the sin.

 

[Steven_Merten]

chrisg93:

The important thing to remember in this passage is that the hand or eye does not commit the sin.

If one is referring to a sinning limb of the body of the Church, as this verse is, it is the hand or eye that is committing the sin.

 

[pilchard]

Steven Merten:

If one is referring to a sinning limb of the body of the Church, as this verse is, it is the hand or eye that is committing the sin.

But it clearly isn’t. It is clearly talking about personal sin. Consider the context.

Adultery of the heart

eye causing you to sin

hand offending thee

Obviously one cannot plumb the inestable depths of sacred scripture and any single passage will have many meanings, many legitimate interpretations and I certainly accept that one legitimate interpretation is to see the hand offending and being cut off thing as a metaphor for the gravity of the consequences of sinning.

Me though - when I close my eyes and picture the scene and imagine christ speaking and consider the context then I see both messages. I see the cutting off motif as a metaphor for the gravity of the situation - that what is at stake is the salvation of our soul - but I also agree that the choice of words “hand offending thee” may have been deliberately general (though this appearance mught be down to the vagaries of translation) - but I think still that under the guise of the general term Jesus was being quite pointed.

Another thing to consider here is what were the alternatives? We have phrases like self abuse and words like masturbate. What where the alternatives in 1st Century Palestine? Perhaps “hand giving offence” was the euphemism of the day

Either way - self abusing is one way that ones hand can give offence and so by definition it is included in Christ’s message… and because it is de facto a legitimate interpretation I think it is a useful pedagogical tool to take my interpretation. In a world where self abuse is almost considered as “hey - everybody does it” I think Mt 5:27-30 can be a powerful passage to help teach kids the truth.

“Jesus tells us not to” is more powerful than “the Church teaches that…”

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello pilchard,

NAB MAT 5:17"You have heard the commandment imposed on your forefathers, 'You shall not commit murder; every murderer shall be liable to judgement.’ What I say to you is; everyone who grows angery with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be **answerable to the Sanhedrin, and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. **

NAB MAT 5: 21

“You have heard the commandment imposed on your forefather, 'You shall not commit adultery.” What I say to you is: anyone who looks lustfully at a woman has already committed adultery with her in his thoughts. If your right eye is your trouble, gouge it out and throw it away! Better to lose part of your body than to have it all cast into Gehenna.

Can you see Jesus useing direct parallel wording between these two adjoining paragraphs in scripture? What is being “cut off” and thrown into Gehenna in the first parallel paragraphy? It is a limb of the body of the Israelite Church which is being “cut off” and thrown into Gehenna. The Sanhedrin are binding a sinner to sin which puts him at risk of eternal damnation.

It is unlikely that Jesus is straying from the line of thought of “cutting off” an individual from the body of the Church when comparing two very parallel adjoining paragraphs.

Throwing Stones

NAB MAT 18:5

"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.

**NIV EXO 31:14 **

“Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people .’”
**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

NAB REV 1:16

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”

**NAB ISA 11:4 **The Rule of Immanuel

He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​

**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna.