Muhammad committed shirk many times

[Reuben_J]

"ralphinal:

Jesus said pray for those who hurt you, forgive those who hate you.

Did Muhammed?

ralph, Yes, he did say that and practiced it too. Muhammad taught the same thing as jesus did with very slight modification. Jesus was also right what he said and so was Muhammad. Perhaps you are not aware of the real Islamic tecahings about these things. You have only heard some few things. they may not be correct.

That may be so but with the clause in the Quran that advocate “an eye for an eye”, his teaching of forgiving the enemy seems to be overshadowed in the practical way by the easier to do “an eye for an eye”. This is what makes the Quran ineffective as a message of love and mercy becuase of the many ‘escape clauses’ that justify cruelty, revenge and sins.

 

[Lothair]

That may be so but with the clause in the Quran that advocate “an eye for an eye”, his teaching of forgiving the enemy seems to be overshadowed in the practical way by the easier to do “an eye for an eye”. This is what makes the Quran ineffective as a message of love and mercy becuase of the many ‘escape clauses’ that justify cruelty, revenge and sins.

Don’t let these Muslisms fool you. Under the concept of ‘abbrogation’, the exhortations to be gentle to the people of the book have been replaced by the ‘sword verses’ [ayat al-sayf ] which were ‘revealed’ in the later half of Muhammad’s ‘ministry’. For more on Abrogation [naskh] read here.

In the later half of Muhammad’s ‘ministry’ he became very frustrated that Christians and Jews were not impressed with his poetry, and did not consider him a prophet. For our ‘arrogance and pride’ we are to be [fought against ](/quranbrowsercom/? version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated& layout=auto& searchstring=009:029)and ‘made low’ into dhimmins

 

[sedonaman]

Macca Victory is one of the best examples how to forgive enemies . It’s easy to utter words , it’s hard to forgive killers of your own daughter , uncle when u have 10 thousands armed soldiers with you.

How magnanimous of him. I have pointed out before that no one would have been killed if Mohammed had not gathered and army and attacked the defenseless people of Mecca.

 

[sedonaman]

A New Holocaust: Islam’s Global War on Christians

It use to be go for a peptalk and kill Jews; now it’s go for a peptalk and kill Christians, courtesy of the RoP – a brief country-by-country account. Here’s just one example:

"Egypt: Journalist Magdi Khalil chronicles in a new report (‘Another Black Friday for the Coptic Christians of Egypt’) the campaign of violence directed against Christian Copts almost weekly immediately following Friday afternoon Muslim prayers. Inspired by Islamist imams preaching religious hatred in mosques all over the country and protected by government officials willing to look the other way, rampaging mobs of Muslims set upon Christians churches, businesses and individuals, from Alexandria to cities all the way up the Nile. Coptic holy days are also favorite times for Muslim violence, which the Egyptian media likes to describe as ‘sectarian strife’ – as if it were actually a two-sided affair.

…

“A scene in the Academy Award-winning movie Schindler’s List gives us some insight into what is happening all across the Muslim world with respect to Christianity. As the SS Commandant Amon Göth and his Nazi Stormtroopers prepare to liquidate the Jewish ghetto in Krakow, Poland, Göth … gives his men a peptalk:

‘For six centuries there has been a Jewish Krakow. Think about that. By this evening, those six centuries are a rumor. They never happened. Today is history.’

“This scene is being repeated in the Friday sermons in mosques and on Islamic satellite TV all over the world, only this time it is the Christians in addition to the Jews who are targets. …”

 

[R_not]

A New Holocaust: Islam’s Global War on Christians

It use to be go for a peptalk and kill Jews; now it’s go for a peptalk and kill Christians, courtesy of the RoP – a brief country-by-country account. Here’s just one example:

"Egypt: Journalist Magdi Khalil chronicles in a new report (‘Another Black Friday for the Coptic Christians of Egypt’) the campaign of violence directed against Christian Copts almost weekly immediately following Friday afternoon Muslim prayers. Inspired by Islamist imams preaching religious hatred in mosques all over the country and protected by government officials willing to look the other way, rampaging mobs of Muslims set upon Christians churches, businesses and individuals, from Alexandria to cities all the way up the Nile. Coptic holy days are also favorite times for Muslim violence, which the Egyptian media likes to describe as ‘sectarian strife’ – as if it were actually a two-sided affair.

…

“A scene in the Academy Award-winning movie Schindler’s List gives us some insight into what is happening all across the Muslim world with respect to Christianity. As the SS Commandant Amon Göth and his Nazi Stormtroopers prepare to liquidate the Jewish ghetto in Krakow, Poland, Göth … gives his men a peptalk:

‘For six centuries there has been a Jewish Krakow. Think about that. By this evening, those six centuries are a rumor. They never happened. Today is history.’

“This scene is being repeated in the Friday sermons in mosques and on Islamic satellite TV all over the world, only this time it is the Christians in addition to the Jews who are targets. …”

It has been going on for a very, long time now and that goes the same for the Hindus.

We have a Church that knows what is happening and misleads too many of us with their accepting the muslim’s claim that allah = the God of Israel when it obviously does not, and that goes for the Jews too - we should both be standing up and saying ‘NO! allah is NOT the God of Israel and here is why… (lay out the obvious differences)’. And who cares what they say after that. It just is not true their claims.

I would say that just leave out anything about their allah, and just say we should respect them because they are human beings. Leave out ‘monothetistic’ because it is just too vanilla and is open to interpretation. Leave out anything concerning islam!

 

[sedonaman]

We have a Church that knows what is happening and misleads too many of us with their accepting the muslim’s claim that allah = the God of Israel

Like Arthurians in their quest for the Holy Grail, the church is engaged in a Quixotic, never-ending pursuit to find the fabled “common ground” with gross evil. I’m tempted to ask what they’ve been smoking.

 

[chrisse]

Don’t be so hard on the Church. When the Pope speaks out, more people die. There is little the official Church can do other than what is happening now. I linked to the Vatican YouTube site where the words “in charity, but FIRST, the truth” were used in any dialogue with muslims (ie the official Vatican dialogue).

It is us who are the soldiers of the Church who must support this in our own society. Speak the truth to Islamists, such as on these forums, speak the truth to the self-appointed dhimmi’s in our society, and speak the truth to all others whose ears are open to it.

Islam cannot stand exposure, it has existed this long only because real examination of it has not been allowed in Islamic controlled areas, and in non-Islamic countries it had little to no interest within the general public.

And don’t be deterred by those within our Catholic community who think we are not being charitable in our words with muslims, while they themselves ignore the plight of Christians in the Islamic world not just in the past but NOW. The muslims on these boards are fully aware of the truth of Islam, and wilfully ignore it, wilfully justify it.

The Christ is our Judge, The Christ will Judge those who did not help Him when He was in need.

Who is more in need, muslims who are offended by criticism of their beliefs, or people who are being persecuted and systemically exterminated or cleansed from their homelands by the ideological tenets of Islam that demand their persecution.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

… I have pointed out before that no one would have been killed if Mohammed had not gathered and army and attacked the defenseless people of Mecca.

Macca is the birthplace of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Enemies of God were not defenseless at all ; they tortured Muslims , killed many of them .

Prophet (pbuh) & other Muslims migrated to Madina & other places . Why u think , they had no right to return at Macca ?

 

[Agabriel]

Macca is the birthplace of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Enemies of God were not defenseless at all ; they tortured Muslims , killed many of them .

Prophet (pbuh) & other Muslims migrated to Madina & other places . Why u think , they had no right to return at Macca ?

There are two reasons why this isn’t true.

#1. There is no historical evidence that the Meccans did anything to Muhammad.

#2. The elders of the area tried to appeal to Muhammad’s uncle to stop Muhammad’s abuse.

Ishaq:119 “'Abu Tabib, your nephew Muhammad has cursed our gods [at this point he had cursed all of them, including Allah], insulted our religion [more correctly, insulted them by trying to steal their religion], mocked our way of life and accused our forefathers of error. Either you stop him or let us get to him. For you, like us, are in opposition to him. He gave them a conciliatory reply. They returned a second time and said, ‘We have asked you to put a stop to your nephew’s activities but you have not done so. By Allah, we cannot endure having our fathers reviled and our customs mocked.’ Muhammad thought that his uncle had the idea of abandoning and betraying him, and that he was going to lose his support. The Apostle broke into tears.”

Tabari VI:93, Tabari VI:94 and Tabari VI:95 also bear this same thing out that it was Muhammad that was causing the problems. ***HE EVEN INCLUDED ALLAH IN HIS TAUNTINGS. ***

What is it that you don’t understand about your own history and texts?

this is the part that gets very confusing. Why is it that muslims have all these texts with all this information that WE SHOW THEM and they bash us for showing it to them?!

It was Muhammad that chose to leave Mecca. No one persecuted him. The problem with this is that he had slaves who were his followers and so their masters, in trying to protect their property (Muhammad should know about this since he was a slave master!) punished the slaves when they tried to leave.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, book 58, number 207 tells of Omar tying his sister up and forcing her not to leave.

The hadiths tell us the opposite story you are trying to tell us.

 

[planten]

Don’t let these Muslisms fool you. Under the concept of ‘abbrogation’, the exhortations to be gentle to the people of the book have been replaced by the ‘sword verses’ [ayat al-sayf ] which were ‘revealed’ in the later half of Muhammad’s ‘ministry’. For more on Abrogation [naskh] read here.

In the later half of Muhammad’s ‘ministry’ he became very frustrated that Christians and Jews were not impressed with his poetry, and did not consider him a prophet. For our ‘arrogance and pride’ we are to be [fought against ](/quranbrowsercom/? version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated& layout=auto& searchstring=009:029)and ‘made low’ into dhimmins

**There is no abrogation of any verse of the Quran. Only bible (the new testament) may have been abrogated by the final testament i.e. Quran. The verses of the bibleNT, even though not from God, may be considered abrogated by the verses of the Quran. But I will not stress for that.

BibleNt has been made null and void by the quran because that bible was not universal. it was only for the Jews and only for a special time. But the Jews rejected that man made book. So the case of the two bibles became very weak, as follows:

The writers of the bibleNt ignored the bibleOT and abondoned the law too. That was the end of the OT for the followers of Jesus. In return, the Jews completely disbelieved everything that was in the bibleNT. So all testaments were gone and a new latest final testament was required for all mankind. That came in the form of Quran, for all mankind for all times. Thanks to the God Almighty.

**.

 

[neploho]

There are two reasons why this isn’t true.

#1. There is no historical evidence that the Meccans did anything to Muhammad.

#2. The elders of the area tried to appeal to Muhammad’s uncle to stop Muhammad’s abuse.

Ishaq:119 “'Abu Tabib, your nephew Muhammad has cursed our gods [at this point he had cursed all of them, including Allah], insulted our religion [more correctly, insulted them by trying to steal their religion], mocked our way of life and accused our forefathers of error. Either you stop him or let us get to him. For you, like us, are in opposition to him. He gave them a conciliatory reply. They returned a second time and said, ‘We have asked you to put a stop to your nephew’s activities but you have not done so. By Allah, we cannot endure having our fathers reviled and our customs mocked.’ Muhammad thought that his uncle had the idea of abandoning and betraying him, and that he was going to lose his support. The Apostle broke into tears.”

Tabari VI:93, Tabari VI:94 and Tabari VI:95 also bear this same thing out that it was Muhammad that was causing the problems. ***HE EVEN INCLUDED ALLAH IN HIS TAUNTINGS. ***

What is it that you don’t understand about your own history and texts?

this is the part that gets very confusing. Why is it that muslims have all these texts with all this information that WE SHOW THEM and they bash us for showing it to them?!

It was Muhammad that chose to leave Mecca. No one persecuted him. The problem with this is that he had slaves who were his followers and so their masters, in trying to protect their property (Muhammad should know about this since he was a slave master!) punished the slaves when they tried to leave.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, book 58, number 207 tells of Omar tying his sister up and forcing her not to leave.

The hadiths tell us the opposite story you are trying to tell us.

First of all Ishaq’s biography is not a Hadith. Secondly are you seriously claiming that the Hadith and biography do not recorn the muslims of Mecca being abused?

 

[sedonaman]

**There is no abrogation of any verse of the Quran. Only bible (the new testament) may have been abrogated by the final testament i.e. Quran. The verses of the bibleNT, even though not from God, may be considered abrogated by the verses of the Quran. But I will not stress for that.

BibleNt has been made null and void by the quran because that bible was not universal. it was only for the Jews and only for a special time. But the Jews rejected that man made book. So the case of the two bibles became very weak, as follows:

The writers of the bibleNt ignored the bibleOT and abondoned the law too. That was the end of the OT for the followers of Jesus. In return, the Jews completely disbelieved everything that was in the bibleNT. So all testaments were gone and a new latest final testament was required for all mankind. That came in the form of Quran, for all mankind for all times. Thanks to the God Almighty.

**.

None of this has anything to do with Mohammed committing shirk. It is completely OT.

 

[planten]

None of this has anything to do with Mohammed committing shirk. It is completely OT.

** sedonaman, It may be OT. But you forgot to read the post of Lothair which discussed abrogation. I post the words of Lothair below. Then please decide if I am off topic.:**

Originally Posted by Lothair
Don’t let these Muslisms fool you. Under the concept of ‘abbrogation’, the exhortations to be gentle to the people of the book have been replaced by the ‘sword verses’ [ayat al-sayf ] which were ‘revealed’ in the later half of Muhammad’s ‘ministry’. For more on Abrogation [naskh] read here

.

 

[inJESUS]

Muhammad committing shirk will not be discussed. What discussion is there with some who read something in their own book and deny its existence.

 

[Agabriel]

First of all Ishaq’s biography is not a Hadith. Secondly are you seriously claiming that the Hadith and biography do not recorn the muslims of Mecca being abused?

I like how you ignore the fact that Muhammed taunted his own Allah.

Anyway, I don’t know what ‘recorn’ means.

Ishaq was an Arab historian. And from a historian’s viewpoint, Muhammed’s claim of persecution does not pan out.

Yes, I am saying that the Muslim’s claim which was Muhammed’s claim, that the persecution did not happen.

From what I have read about Islam, and Muhammed, the muslims have made many baseless claims. There is no evidence for a corrupted Bible, this so called persecution in Mecca, and there is no evidence of Muhammed’s visits by an angel (it could have been Satan who he thought it was until his first wife said it was an angel (she wasn’t there when it happened), it could have been cave gases and he was hallucinating, and/or it could have been Muhammed having another fit that he was known to have).

Ishaq:118 “When the Apostle’s companions prayed they went to the glens so that their people could not see them. But one day they were rudely interrupted. The Muslims protested and then turned to blows. They smote a polytheist with the jawbone of a camel and wounded him. This was the first blood to be shed in Islam.”

Let it be known that the Islamic Hadith attributes “first blood” to the Muslims, not the Infidels.

Most of the problems that Muhammed had in Mecca were that poets and/or songs were written against Muhammed, and probably insults were hurled at him.

And Muhammed repaid these people by having assasinated an old man over 100 years old as an example. He basically went to that city and killed all the men and boys who had hair, and enslaved the rest for Muhammed being insulted.

Then the killing, enslaving, stealing, etc never stopped. And still goes on to this day.

The breaking of promises even starts with those days in Mecca. He broke a promise to incorporate Allah’s three daughters into his new religion.

Here is one of the better articles, without having to buy some books, about this: Islam and Violence

I understand you want to be clear about all of this but it doesn’t excuse defending the indefensible. Before I would defend such a thing as Islam, I would be a little bit better informed about it. And the tu quoque excuses that I am reading from you are what I read from Muslims too often on these threads.

 

[Agabriel]

You are right sedonaman, we are completely off topic.

I just posted something off topic and apologize. I don’t think the Muslims want to admit that their own prophet committed shirk. There are quite a number of things they don’t like to talk about either. The claim by planten that the New Testament was abrogated by the Quran is laughable. The first claim is that it was corrupted, now the claim is that it was abrogated.

Sounds like squirming to me…

 

[Lothair]

** sedonaman, It may be OT. But you forgot to read the post of Lothair which discussed abrogation. I post the words of Lothair below. Then please decide if I am off topic.:**

.

I was speaking of abrogation in the Quran, which is the only plausible method of maintaing that the Quran is actually scripture, while explaining the huge number of conradictions on its pages.

I gave a citation to an article on Answering Islam.org that makes a very good case. For Muslims to claim that the Bible is ‘abrogated’ by the Quran is as ridiculous as making the same claim for the Book of Mormon. What fiction.

 

[inJESUS]

Maybe its better to go back to topic and wait for someone to respond to the arguments of shirk presented. =

There is nothing in the Bible called God AND Moses, or God AND Abraham. There is nothing called the Lord is One AND (insert a name) is his messenger. There is nothing called God and Moses decree, God and Moses know better, God and Abraham decide. There is nothing called love Moses more than the whole world. There is nothing called stop your prayer to God to answer Moses. There is nothing called God swears by donkeys and horses’ hooves. There is nothing called God swears by Moses or Abraham.

Suddenly, this God who is “supposed” to be the same deity that “revealed” to Muhammad, suddenly this deity cannot utter something without inserting Muhammad. The Shema involves Muhammad, Allah’s actions are shared by Muhammad, Muhammad is to be loved more than the whole world, Muhammad is to be answered if a man is praying, and Allah swears by Muhammad.

If this is not shirk, it means the corrupt men who corrupted the Bible elevate God more than Allah himself does in the Quran.

 

[sedonaman]

sedonaman, It may be OT. But you forgot to read the post of Lothair which discussed abrogation. I post the words of Lothair below. Then please decide if I am off topic.

You are off topic. What the Bible says has nothing to do with abrogation in the Qur’an, nor Mohammed committing shirk.