Murderers and Mercy

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When it comes to discussing torture of detainees, many justify the abuse of POWs by citing their crimes. “So-and-so, murdered X number of people”, or “So-and-so made bombs for what’s-his-name.”

In other words, because so-and-so did such-and-such horrible thing, he is not worthy of any human dignity. Hence, when POWs are raped, forced to strip, waterboarded, electrocuted, etc., supporters of these methods see no ethical problems with such conduct. They believe that they are morally justified to carry out these draconian practices.

I’m looking for some advice on how to argue against this thinking. Torture doesn’t appear to be something we should endorse. Then again, for torture supporters, it seems absurd to argue that a terrorist is undeserving of rape, electrocution, and whatever horrors await him in a POW camp.

What are your thoughts?
 
I agree that we should not torture, although what constitutes torture may be arguable in some instances.

But when the question is “humiliation” rather than torture, I say that captivity is inherently humiliating. Ergo, there is no moral obligation not to humiliate.

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
although what constitutes torture may be arguable in some instances.

ICXC NIKA
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No sane individual could categorize the practices I’ve mentioned as anything but torture. Anything interrogation method employing the use of excruciating pain or mental anguish to induce a confession is torture. Even sleep deprivation, which is vanilla in comparison to what I mentioned, is torture.
GEddie said:
But when the question is “humiliation” rather than torture, I say that captivity is inherently humiliating. Ergo, there is no moral obligation not to humiliate.
ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
I think you’re equivocating here. There appears to be a salient difference between incarcerating someone and forcing someone to strip naked and wear a leash. Perhaps that difference is one only of degree. In that case, such an extreme degree of humiliation remains to be justified.
 
Torture is always evil and never necessary. Mercy and forgiveness is the key to salvation.
 
Remember,
O most gracious Virgin Mary,
that never was it known that any one who fled to thy protection,
implored thy help or sought thy intercession,
was left unaided.
Inspired with this confidence,
I fly unto thee,
O Virgin of virgins my Mother;
to thee do I come,
before thee I stand,
sinful and sorrowful;
O Mother of thy Word Incarnate,
despise not my petitions,
but in thy clemency hear and answer me.
Amen

Hail Mary, full of grace,
The Lord is with Thee;
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners,
Now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Our Father,
who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.
 
Torture is evil, but occasionally I think it’s a necessary evil. If it comes to that politicians, police and the military are a necessary evil - if we lived in a perfect world world we wouldn’t need them.

Take for example a terrorist who is captured and who knows full well all or part of the details of an outrage that is being planned and which will kill any number of people. And he may have details of other members of the cell.

What are the intelligence staff supposed to do - read him his bill of rights and appeal to his conscience?

If there were suspicions terrorists were planning to put a dirty nuclear bomb into London for example, killing thousands, and contaminating large parts of the city for decades, and intelligence staff thought they have someone in their custody who may be able to help them prevent it, what steps should they take?

We live in a fallen world.
 
I think there are two main ideas about justice (legal justice): one incorporates the idea of punishment imposed by the state (or community) for breaking the laws/rules; the other idea is that any legal penalties are only a way to prevent further harm to others and/or society as a whole. Practically, the adherents of both theories might agree with many of the legal penalties that exist today (like the existence of prisons) the difference being that the former sees a prison sentence as a punishment and possibly as a form of retribution for whatever that person did while the latter see it as the only way the society, at this point, can guarantee this person is no longer a danger.

Obviously, those who agree with the use of torture are adherents to the former theory. But in the case of torture and murderers/terrorists this punishment has no other purpose than a pretty sadistic sense of retribution. It doesn’t help preventing further acts of aggression, it doesn’t prevent these people from violating more serious laws ( since these people already did this), it doesn’t objectively help any of their victims.

What is more is the fact that once a state started to use torture (either directly or by “closing their eyes”) it does lose the moral high ground and may actually lead to torture being more accepted. Criticizing other group for using torture becomes way less effective when it comes down to “you torture possibly innocent people, so you are evil. We only torture those who are guilty”. Plus that it could be used as propaganda (as it already happened).

It might lead to other questions that the state would have to answer. If it accepts torture for simply retribution sense, why it would be so wrong to resolve other problems using a milder form of violence? Or fear of physical violence?
 
Strydersroom said:
Torture is always evil and never necessary. Mercy and forgiveness is the key to salvation.
Click to expand...
Salutations,
When in combat, there are guidelines how to get info. I will assure you a steak and wine will not get info from a terrorist. His salvation is a different journey. We had a young man go to Afghanistan. He felt like you. He had a small group of soldiers that would sit and talk to Muslim young men. They all thought they were working out a friedship. A pebble in a river that makes rings that goes out and touch another and another. Well, one day their friends chatted and left and came back w guns and we’re killing our young men. First, he felt surprize. Then, his buddies are getting shot. So, he starts shooting at what he thought was his friends. Then, he began to enjoy shooting the enemy. I don’t know how many killed or wounded. The main thing was he thought he committed the unpardonable sin. When he went to confession he was crying. Father told him when Lazaruses tomb was opened. It stunk. Sin stinks. He had to do what he did and if enjoying shooting the enemy that betrayed their friendship got him through that, then so be it. But, he was remorseful and so confused. When the unpardonable sin is committed, the person doesn’t worry about it. Per Rev. Billy Graham.He was only 21. Our freedom is carried on the backs of courageous babies. My son in law was killed in Iraq at age 24yo. One never gets over it.
So, a cold room, a bright light, gruel for food. Some of it is how they live. The light is the only aggravating thing. The desert is hot during the day and cold at night.
They don’t have a lot of food. If they had an inkling that would happen, maybe they could of stopped it by keeping one fake friend and tried to get info out of them. I don’t believe in nakedness, electrucution,starvation. Our soldiers are waterboarded so they know how it feels and when to stop… Kids and woman carry weapons. That started in VIET .Nam. Starting to shoot woman and kids was hard. But, they would kill one of our soldiers and not blink.The terrorists are Satan’s army. Pray for our military and police and fireman. The church has to rise up in fasting and prayer to defeat Satan who rules the earth.
There is a threat on the Pope. That other priest was killed in France. And people think Trump is wrong holding the Muslim refugees back TILL THEY ARE VETTED AND FOUND SAFE. We are soldiers on the front lines. If you live near a Muslim
Borrow sugar. Bake cookies,etc. Report what you find but you may become a victim.Jesus our brother, protect us. Mary our Mother protect us. Father give us wisdom.Send your angels to protect Catholics in the mideast. All of our refugees are Muslim. We’re are the Christians. Buried alive, crucified and beheaded.
We need help God. St. MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL DEFEND US IN BATTLE. BE OUR PROTECTION AGAINST THE SNARES OF THE DEVIL. ALL FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR SORROWFUL PASSION, HAVE MERCY ON US AND ON THE WHOLE WORLD. OH MY JESUS FORGIVE US OUR SINS. LEAD US FROM THE FIRES OF HELL. LEAD ALL SOULS TO HEAVEN ESPECIALLY THOSE MOST NEED OF YOUR MERCY. REMEMBER IT IS YOUR DAUGHTER OR SON WHO IS CAPTURED RAPED, SODOMIZED, AND BEHEADED. WHAT WOULD YOU DO. NOW IF YOU HAD AN ENEMY AND HE KNEW WERE YOUR CHILDREN WERE. WAR IS HELL.
YOUR VALUES ARE CHALLENGED. WISH THE STEAK WOULD WORK…
IN CHRISTS LOVE
TWEEDLEALICE :confused::eek::😉
 
Strydersroom said:
Torture is always evil and never necessary. Mercy and forgiveness is the key to salvation.
Click to expand...
Salutations,
I thought my note and prayer was lost while I tried to edit. I didnt finish editing. Some we’Re is where or were. Sorry I don’t have time to go back and check things. Mother Mary pray for world pieace.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice
 
The_Cavalier said:
When it comes to discussing torture of detainees, many justify the abuse of POWs by citing their crimes. “So-and-so, murdered X number of people”, or “So-and-so made bombs for what’s-his-name.”

In other words, because so-and-so did such-and-such horrible thing, he is not worthy of any human dignity. Hence, when POWs are raped, forced to strip, waterboarded, electrocuted, etc., supporters of these methods see no ethical problems with such conduct. They believe that they are morally justified to carry out these draconian practices.

I’m looking for some advice on how to argue against this thinking. Torture doesn’t appear to be something we should endorse. Then again, for torture supporters, it seems absurd to argue that a terrorist is undeserving of rape, electrocution, and whatever horrors await him in a POW camp.

What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
 
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