Music Ministers

[MarthaMartha]

While the diocese does (or used to) have formal cantor training, I was grandfathered in because of my considerable experience and reputation.

. . . (folk group made up of mostly aging hippie types).

I was invited to be a cantor by virtue of my membership in our folk choir – in other words, my experience and reputation as an aging hippie type!

 

[prv]

Deacon Ed, would you prefer for the Saginaw Diocese to use the Adoremus hymnal? We have a new Bishop and our Church just had a re-dicated and they had worst music ever, would you prefer for them to use Adoremus hymnal?

Pardon the interruption, what is in the Adoremus hymnal?

 

[paulah]

***Something to discuss… (I guess its a slight hi-jack)

in our diocese the priest wants music to begin as soon as he consumes the Eucharist. Not necessarily songs - but some type of music, light piano, light guitar picking - something! Mike usually takes this time to sing a meditational song: (something like) Healer, St Theresa’s Prayer, Amini Christi (sp?)…by JMT there are others by different ones, but these come to mind. Somthing that fits the readings/homily.

This is a personal thing, but my gripe if that there isnt enough **quiet **time during Sunday Mass.
My days are filled with noise (just like many of us)… kids talking/fighting/fussing, radio playing, tv going, phone ringing, traffic noise, etc. I would L O V E for this time in the mass to have silence!
Quietness.
Nothing to hear.
The stillness of the moment would be better then any organ toots or guitar strums.
Just having a few moments of quiet could aid in gathering a prayerful spirit to recieve Communion.

Anybody else know what Im talking about? is it different in YOUR parish?

 

[johnnykins]

LOL - he IS surviving… barely! (God’s grace in action!)
Never thought about the email thing. Thank GOD our parish doesnt post his email - or surely he’d have the same emails of ‘admiration’ as the rest .

We have a very multi-cultural church. 50% black, 30% hisp. and 20% white. Also, it is approx 50% Charismatic. we LOVE love LOVE our church!

This being said, here’s story…
We have 4 weekend masses… 4 different MM’s - one for each mass (other parish MM’s shriek when they find this out). There isnt one ‘head’ music director… if there are issues with the music ministry, our Pastor will call a meeting with the 4 MM’s for discussion. Each MM has their own charism’s that are displayed as a MM - also, all 4 are the lead singers and play the guitar. They have other members that play piano or other instruments and singer in the choir.

All four MM’s are given a quarterly publication of Today’s Liturgy to help select their music. They use this only as a guide . They like the freedom of feeling the Spirit move and being able to change music during the mass to fit what the people need or Priest has talked about in his homily… and many times the priest has asked for certain songs to be played at certain times.
Mike - my husband - is the youngest, 37. The other 3 are older (50 - 60ish range) and have much more experience as MM’s. Couple of times Mike has gone to his peers for questions over songs being liturgically correct for the season.
Other then singing and playing guitar with the other 3 MM’s for many years (at different times), Mike has had NO ‘formal’ training or education for this position. He’s a convert from the Baptist faith and was taught early on how to sing and harmonize.

Anyway, he just wanted some (name removed by moderator)ut from other MMs around the country - to hear what y’all endured to fulfill the position!

You guys have givin him some good research and reading!!! Thanks a gazillion.

I wish your husband well. He perhaps, as a convert, does not know the buzzsaw he is heading for as a catholic music director.

Personally I have given up on music directors - the selections are, with very few exceptions, dreck not suitable in the least to Mass. The folk music and assorted other 70’s garbage needs to be banned out right - IMHO. The lack of ability by choirs, and especially cantors, to actually sing on key is another burr in the old saddle.

The most moving, beautiful and inspiring liturgical music ever written was written for the Catholic Church - yet MMs almost invariably choose banal, often heretical, garbage.

Trying to be polite and tactful with priests and MMs has simply not worked. It’s time to bring back chant and other traditional Catholic polyphony and banish the 60s and 70s zeitgeist for good. Even the lousy pre-VII banal music is preferable in that it is at least traditional and Catholic.

I suggest your husband study some traditional classical liturgical music. Listen to Allegri’s Miserere Mei Deus. Try some Palestrina, Mozart, Chant, etc., etc. Break free from the age of aquarius.

 

[johnnykins]

Pardon the interruption, what is in the Adoremus hymnal?

It is put out by Ignatius Press and contains a lot of Pre-VII hymns and chant. It is used by EWTN at its Chapels. I note that it also has the Order of the Mass in both Latin and English (I presume it has a Spanish edition as well) with the rubrics. The best part of having the rubrics is that it makes clear that the Sign of Peace is OPTIONAL. Please God, it will go to OPTION HEAVEN soon.

 

[paulah]

I suggest your husband study some traditional classical liturgical music. Listen to Allegri’s Miserere Mei Deus. Try some Palestrina, Mozart, Chant, etc., etc. Break free from the age of aquarius.

Hey johnny, thanks for your reply!

Our church is very mulit-cultural - mostly blacks which are charismatic based. Classical liturgical music doesnt bring a prayerful mood for these folks … probably why we love our parish people so much!
Personally I enjoy and get MORE out of liturgical music that touches my heart - and holds a strong annointing!
Funny thing, all 4 of our MM’s have the same thought process.

The classical liturgical pieces are played at many of the other churches in our diocese - just not at ours! shrugs shoulders

…whats neat (and an affirmation) is folks that visit our parish usually go to the MM’s and compliment the music! and usually have tear streaked faces!!!

please tell me what “break free from aquarius” means?
we are such simple minded people down here

 

[paulah]

It is put out by Ignatius Press and contains a lot of Pre-VII hymns and chant. .

Since we are no longer pre-V II, why would we want to use this?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Deacon Ed, would you prefer for the Saginaw Diocese to use the Adoremus hymnal? We have a new Bishop and our Church just had a re-dicated and they had worst music ever, would you prefer for them to use Adoremus hymnal?

Well, if I had my way most of our music would be polyphony with an emphasis on Palestrina. That isn’t going to happen in real life (but I can dream).

I’m going to give you the best answer I can (and one I’ve given in workshops that I’ve conducted). Musical selection for Mass should reflect the readings (and, if possible, the homily) and should be singable by the people. No matter what one selects there will be people who live it and people who hate it. Some will sing it and others won’t.

There are four hymns that are guaranteed to make most people over 50 happy: “Holy God We Praise Thy Name,” “Immaculate Mary,” the “Agnus Dei” and the “Sanctus.” Other music, even more modern stuff, can speak to the people and, if it does, use it.

Many of the hymns found in the Adoremus Hymnal are found in other hymnals as well. I certainly agree that it presents hymns that are in line with the directives of the Vatican for music. But I don’t discount the fact that music is an aid to worship, to lifting our hearts in prayer to God. If what is selected does that for the majority of the congregation it is good. If it doesn’t – rethink the selections and, if necessary, the hymnal that is in use.

Perhaps we need to remember that although the focus of the Mass is on God, it is our work (liturgy = work of the people) and we need to be as involved as we can. Good music enhances that, bad music detracts from that. It’s that simple.

As a bi-ritual deacon I serve both a Latin parish and a Melkite parish. In the Melkite Church we use a lot of Arabic hymns, and the selection of music is not optional – it’s mandated by the particular day of the season. Many hymns are sung virtually all year! Yet, because this is music that has spoken to the people, that finds its origin in the people, they sing with great gusto (if not always on key). Even when I first started there and didn’t know the meaning of the words, the hymns helped me to pray, to focus on God.

That’s a long way to get to the answer: maybe.

Deacon Ed

 

[paulah]

Deacon Ed,

:bowdown: When I grow up, I wanna be JUST like YOU… gifts and all!

 

[Andrewcarey]

good luck

Deacon Ed,

:bowdown: When I grow up, I wanna be JUST like YOU… gifts and all!

 

[johnnykins]

I suggest your husband study some traditional classical liturgical music. Listen to Allegri’s Miserere Mei Deus. Try some Palestrina, Mozart, Chant, etc., etc. Break free from the age of aquarius.

Hey johnny, thanks for your reply!

Our church is very mulit-cultural - mostly blacks which are charismatic based. Classical liturgical music doesnt bring a prayerful mood for these folks … probably why we love our parish people so much!

Gee, I never realized that skin color determines taste in classical music. How stereotypical. But I guess simple minded folks like you down there just easily come to such conclusions.

Personally I enjoy and get MORE out of liturgical music that touches my heart - and holds a strong annointing!
Funny thing, all 4 of our MM’s have the same thought process.

Not surprised at all - the very bane of Catholic Liturgical music is the MMs that now prowl the lofts.

The classical liturgical pieces are played at many of the other churches in our diocese - just not at ours! shrugs shoulders

Very doubtful they are played with any regularity.

…whats neat (and an affirmation) is folks that visit our parish usually go to the MM’s and compliment the music! and usually have tear streaked faces!!!

I’m glad for that. I would probably have tears running down my face as well.

please tell me what “break free from aquarius” means?
we are such simple minded people down here

Oh no doubt much worse than that!!!

 

[wisdom_3_5]

I’ve been in the choir for 7 years now and the music director just asked me to be a cantor . My youngest daughter is now 4 and the director thought that I would want to sit with the family on “off choir” days until my children were easier to handle in mass. She didn’t mention any training but I have a degree in vocal music so maybe the training would be about reading music etc.?

I don’t like the “newer” music much. We actually have a chant/motet we’re working on now! The first one I’ve seen in this choir. Everyone was very enthusiastic about it. Part of the problem is lack of singers, mostly men. I don’t think we need alot, just two or three on a part would be enough, but we can’t even get that. So we’re stuck singing SAB (more modern) pieces/songs instead of SATB.

 

[johnnykins]

Since we are no longer pre-V II, why would we want to use this?

Primarily because the garbage put out after VII is unsuitable, banal and often heretical. Plus Pre-VII music is part of our heritage as Catholics.

 

[paulah]

Hey Johnny, I dont know you, but Ive taken EXTREME offense over this…

Gee, I never realized that skin color determines taste in classical music. How stereotypical. But I guess simple minded folks like you down there just easily come to such conclusions.

guess what? Im black.

…and how dare you come into MY thread and talk trash to me???

 

[nsorg-dupr]

What have I endured to become an MM?

My response to this question follows in a stream of consciousness:

First, let me remind you that my “MM” (and the earlier Bachelor of Music Degree), like many others from accredited public universities, has taken over six years to complete and $80,000 to obtain. That seems to be fairly normal by today’s standards.

That being said, the following is one of the “first responses” by several of my other (non-degreed) Roman Catholic church musician colleagues, “Yours is an understanding of church music that is only academic in nature: you don’t fit in with us ‘pastoral’ musicians.” Or, what is added by some others is: “Your degree is from a public university. What would that knowledge serve in the RC setting?”

And my reaction to that is just a chuckle!

Needless to say, I began as an organist at my home parish at the age of 13–having begun a strict regiment of piano and theory lessons at the age of 5–and within the next three years was playing a total of five weekend Masses at two parishes.

Then I went to university to pursue the first degree – a Bachelor of Music Degree. There I fostered high achievement in my own degree area (organ performance) as well as broad intellectual musical development. I performed numerous recitals that have included repertoire from the great scope of Roman Catholic musical tradition, Dupre, Mulet, Franck, DeGrigny, etc. Two of my recitals have centered on rarely performed French liturgical organ and choral repertoire from 1910-1925.

I have traveled the US and Canada many times performing recitals and accompanying at major church venues, and during my degree-track, was appointed organist at a renowned Protestant church with a prestigious music program.

All the while my BM degree was being completed, I was shunned from my own RC church and excluded from the local “RC music scene” because the music that I would be capable of leading was “high church” music – “music that should be left to the Anglican Church,” I was told by a local priest" – and repertoire that was too “performance oriented.”

Then the MM Degree was conferred. At the end of the tally, I have completed hundreds of hours of research and participated in faculty studios and performance ensembles. In addition to that, my coursework and research has taken me deeper into the following areas: Composition, Choral Conducting, Orchestral Conducting, Music Theory, Counterpoint, Instrumentation and Scoring, Musicology, and others. I am still involved in learning and scholarship, and an active participant in the AGO.

Needless to say, this kind of sacred musical education is oftentimes frowned upon by “small-town” types and local clergy.

I am not trying to summit a virtual CV to this site. No, let me make it clear that my purpose is not to be prideful about my academic efforts; however, my goal is to make clear the need for education and formation in the area of sacred music in the Roman Catholic Church.

There is no need for me to explain that further. It can best be explained by the well-respected authors of the “The Snowbird Statement On Catholic Liturgical Music” at the following cite:

users.csbsju.edu/~awruff/snowbird_statement.htm

This is a must read for MMs and MMs, both interested in sacred music.

It is similarly important for all MMs (those who do and do not have degrees, all categories) to read ALL of the liturgical documents and have SCHOLARLY discussions about these with trustworthy and educated clergy and musicians. One cannot always trust Mr. (or Ms.) Popularity in his (or her) fair and impartial commentary on Roman Catholic sacred music.

To illustrate, let me share the following anecdote. When I once suggested that another local RC “music minister” (of high popularity in diocesan circles for his ability to accompany himself at the piano during Mass - lounge lizard) join the AGO, I was dismissed as an upstart.

And my reaction to that is just that same as the first: another chuckle!

 

[prv]

What have I endured to become an MM?

My response to this question follows in a stream of consciousness:

First, let me remind you that my “MM” (and the earlier Bachelor of Music Degree), like many others from accredited public universities, has taken over six years to complete and $80,000 to obtain. That seems to be fairly normal by today’s standards.

That being said, the following is one of the “first responses” by several of my other (non-degreed) Roman Catholic church musician colleagues, “Yours is an understanding of church music that is only academic in nature: you don’t fit in with us ‘pastoral’ musicians.” Or, what is added by some others is: “Your degree is from a public university. What would that knowledge serve in the RC setting?”

And my reaction to that is just a chuckle!

Needless to say, I began as an organist at my home parish at the age of 13–having begun a strict regiment of piano and theory lessons at the age of 5–and within the next three years was playing a total of five weekend Masses at two parishes.

Then I went to university to pursue the first degree – a Bachelor of Music Degree. There I fostered high achievement in my own degree area (organ performance) as well as broad intellectual musical development. I performed numerous recitals that have included repertoire from the great scope of Roman Catholic musical tradition, Dupre, Mulet, Franck, DeGrigny, etc. Two of my recitals have centered on rarely performed French liturgical organ and choral repertoire from 1910-1925.

I have traveled the US and Canada many times performing recitals and accompanying at major church venues, and during my degree-track, was appointed organist at a renowned Protestant church with a prestigious music program.

All the while my BM degree was being completed, I was shunned from my own RC church and excluded from the local “RC music scene” because the music that I would be capable of leading was “high church” music – “music that should be left to the Anglican Church,” I was told by a local priest" – and repertoire that was too “performance oriented.”

Then the MM Degree was conferred. At the end of the tally, I have completed hundreds of hours of research and participated in faculty studios and performance ensembles. In addition to that, my coursework and research has taken me deeper into the following areas: Composition, Choral Conducting, Orchestral Conducting, Music Theory, Counterpoint, Instrumentation and Scoring, Musicology, and others. I am still involved in learning and scholarship, and an active participant in the AGO.

Needless to say, this kind of sacred musical education is oftentimes frowned upon by “small-town” types and local clergy.

I am not trying to summit a virtual CV to this site. No, let me make it clear that my purpose is not to be prideful about my academic efforts; however, my goal is to make clear the need for education and formation in the area of sacred music in the Roman Catholic Church.

There is no need for me to explain that further. It can best be explained by the well-respected authors of the “The Snowbird Statement On Catholic Liturgical Music” at the following cite:

users.csbsju.edu/~awruff/snowbird_statement.htm

This is a must read for MMs and MMs, both interested in sacred music.

It is similarly important for all MMs (those who do and do not have degrees, all categories) to read ALL of the liturgical documents and have SCHOLARLY discussions about these with trustworthy and educated clergy and musicians. One cannot always trust Mr. (or Ms.) Popularity in his (or her) fair and impartial commentary on Roman Catholic sacred music.

To illustrate, let me share the following anecdote. When I once suggested that another local RC “music minister” (of high popularity in diocesan circles for his ability to accompany himself at the piano during Mass - lounge lizard) join the AGO, I was dismissed as an upstart.

And my reaction to that is just that same as the first: another chuckle!

The comment from your non-degreed colleague is a terrible response, beyond tasteless. It doesn’t matter what form of music you or anyone advocate. It is flat out rude. Tell your colleague that people go to school to learn, not to presume they already know. As far as the clergy not liking this kind of education, how can this be so since the Holy Father, both this one and the one prior, have incessantly called for reform in the music? To the idea that your degree comes from a public university, that is more than many music directors, some of them don’t have any training. Don’t be discouraged, people hated Jesus in His day.

 

[MarthaMartha]

The comment from your non-degreed colleague is a terrible response, beyond tasteless. It doesn’t matter what form of music you or anyone advocate. It is flat out rude. Tell your colleague that people go to school to learn, not to presume they already know. As far as the clergy not liking this kind of education, how can this be so since the Holy Father, both this one and the one prior, have incessantly called for reform in the music? To the idea that your degree comes from a public university, that is more than many music directors, some of them don’t have any training. Don’t be discouraged, people hated Jesus in His day.

I’m sensing there’s more than a little jealousy there, too. If I had your experience, I’d head for the larger cathedrals, e.g. if you’re near your state capital or archdiocesan headquarters. They usually hire degreed professionals. I agree, don’t be discouraged!

 

[prv]

I’m sensing there’s more than a little jealousy there, too. If I had your experience, I’d head for the larger cathedrals, e.g. if you’re near your state capital or archdiocesan headquarters. They usually hire degreed professionals. I agree, don’t be discouraged!

Also, if you are anywhere near a national basillica (sp?), don’t forget about these ministry oportunities as well.